Lecture 4 - April 22nd

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Here is the link to the lecture today. Let's get everyone participating and answering; we're already off to a great start thanks to John!

[Aspra Roseta Laira]

Here is my very weak participation. I found the readings longer than I expected them to be. I'm also busier than I expected to be, so I didn't thoroughly read "Undefeated" and will not answer questions related to it (at least not tonight).

2. What common thread when it comes to money do you see in Hemingway’s life so far, and where is it reflected in “Snows?”
It seems that he finds money to be a sort of shackles -- he relies on his wife's money, but it does nothing for his creativity. He refers to her as a rich bitch, a "destroyer of his talent." Money softens him and makes him lazy, spoiled. "He had traded [his old life] for security, for comfort too."

3. My favorite passage in "The Snows of Kilimanjaro" was the irony that this character, a writer, thinks about all of his unwritten stories before he dies, yet we are reading about them as he dies -- somehow they were written. The most memorable story is that of Williamson, the bombing officer, who is shot by a stick bomb, and the argument about "our Lord never sending you anything you could not bear" I guess the pain of the wound is also a symbol of the pain of life in general.

4. Further, I would like you to find a section of a couple of paragraphs and identify and explain the underlying symbolism or meaning behind them.
The most obvious symbol is that of the hyena. Since (at the time I'm writing), I'm the first to submit my answers, I'll go for the obvious.

The hyena first appears after they drink together (the wife has consented to drinking with her husband whom she earlier refused a drink -- perhaps she's giving up on him?) The hyena is the "one that makes the noise at night" while Harry is sleeping, dreaming about his old, vibrant, passionate life. Clearly, the hyena is a symbol for death, but at this point it seems to appear during these dreams, when Harry possibly seeks to die? As it appears, "It came with a rush; not a rush of water nor of wind; but of a sudden evil-smelling emptiness and the odd thing was that the hyena slipped lightly along the edges of it." The hyena is later referred to as death by Harry: "death had come and rested its head on the foot of the cot. ... 'Never believe any of that about a scythe and a skull ... it can have a wide snout like a hyena." Sorry to take the most obvious.

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

Q1. In Undefeated, Manuel is old, but in some ways like a young boy just coming out after his injury, and Zapato in a way is acting like his father, as his protector. Yes, he is paid, but not much, and he is a piccadore out of a sense of duty, such as a father to a son. The other picadores could also be fatherless, as Manuel calls them bastard for missing with the pike.

Q2. Harry calls her a "rich bitch" and throughout the story beyond that is only "the woman" and "she" and never a name until the very end dream sequence where she is named Helen. Overall the a nagging oppression of "bloody money". The money is a crutch, it allows for comforts yes, but it also has obligations that waste time, and the writer in this case is tortured by the things left undone now that life is slipping away.

Q3/4. Snows:
THe mountains of Colorado and of Austria come rushing to mind of those described:
"... the fast-slipping rush of running powder-snow on crust, singing "Hi! Ho! adn Rolly!" as your ran down the last stretch to the steep drop, taking is straight, then running the orchard in three turns and out across the ditch an onto the icy road behind the inn. Knocking your bindings loose, kicking the skis free and leaning them up against the wooden wall of the inn, the lamplight coming out the window, where inside, in the smoky, new-wine smelling warmth, they were playing the accordion."
This coming from a man with a leg that will not let him stand, let alone ski, as he remembers what it was like.

also something that reminds me now of what is going on in Zimbabwe is like what happened in the Weimar Republic:
"AT the hotel in Triberg the proprietor had a fine season. It was very plesant and we were all great friends. The next year came the inflation, and the money he had made the year before was not enough to buy supplies to open the hotel and he hanged himself."
It would be interesting if time had shifted 50 years and Hemingway were to write about the policies of Robert Mugabe.

Undefeated:
Foreshadowing ---
"Say, give me another shot of that", Manuel said. He had poured the brandy the waiter had slopped into his glass and drank it while they were talking.
The original waiter poured his glass full mechanically, and the three of them went out of the room talking.
From the story, he is just coming off injury, and understands he is not likely to get a good chance next, but instead of conserving his fortitude he proceeds to get drunk. At the time, perhaps alcohol was in some ways perceived as medicinal, but deep down he knows that it will only dull his abilities, as he grinds towards doom. Of course, later Zurito does the same thing, tipping his cognac from his saucer to his glass, but he does it in control as an afterthought, as thrift, not to get more.

[Nic Casálmac'h]

1. I guess I don't really see any connection here. I guess one could probably read something into it, but maybe I'm just missing it. I saw what X. Pol Briga was saying, but that doesn't seem quite what your question was referring to, though I could be mistaken.

However, there was a section in "Snows" that I thought was influenced by this: "The next year came the inflation and the money he had made the year before was not enough to buy supplies to open the hotel and he hanged himself." Not much of consequence to the overall tale, but it reminded me of it.

2. It seems to me that Hemingway realized the ineffectiveness of money to make him happy and yet was not strong enough to break his reliance on it. In "Snows", Harry speaks several times against money--he calls the woman a "rich bitch" and says "your bloody money"--but it seemed as if this were either a recent realization, or something he was powerless to resist, for "It was strange, too, wasn't it, that when he fell in love with another woman, that woman should always have more money than the last one?" Either way, he knows now that he let money lure him into complacency and waste his life away, or, as he puts it: "Your damned money was my armour."

3. Favourite passages...

"The Undefeated": The part about the substitute bull-fight critic interested me. Everything else was about the bull-fight and about Manuel and those involved, so this stood out for me because it was separate, of someone unnamed rendering judgment upon the proceedings without care for anything but the external. People are often too ready to do that.

"The Snows of Kilimanjaro": I liked the sections pertaining to Harry as a writer, mostly because I could sympathize with them, but particularly this one: "Now he would never write the things that he had saved to write until he knew enough to write them well. Well, he would not have to fail at trying to write them either. Maybe you could never write them, and that was why you put them off and delayed the starting. Well he would never know, now."

4. I'm having trouble with this section; I'm not really much good at figuring out symbolism, so I'll have to give it some more thought.

I have to say, though, that whole section at the end of "Snows" was kind of confusing at first. It sounded like Harry was dead, but then he told that section like it was really happening, and then it hadn't; rather strange. It seems to hold all sorts of meaning, but I don't quite know what.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Apr 22, 2008 21:05:20 GMT -6 Aspra Roseta Laira said:

Here is my very weak participation. I found the readings longer than I expected them to be. I'm also busier than I expected to be, so I didn't thoroughly read "Undefeated" and will not answer questions related to it (at least not tonight).

You are more than meeting your obligations in this class, Aspra. No need to worry yet.

Apr 22, 2008 21:05:20 GMT -6 Aspra Roseta Laira said:

2. What common thread when it comes to money do you see in Hemingway’s life so far, and where is it reflected in “Snows?”
It seems that he finds money to be a sort of shackles -- he relies on his wife's money, but it does nothing for his creativity. He refers to her as a rich bitch, a "destroyer of his talent." Money softens him and makes him lazy, spoiled. "He had traded [his old life] for security, for comfort too."

Very good, yes. Hemingway always resented that he had to rely on the money of his wives throughout his life, excepting his last marriage. He and Hadley were mostly supported by Hadley's $300 a month trust, although his newspaper work did help. Much of that resentment found its way into the story, joined by bitterness at his mother for her own money troubles after his father died.

Apr 22, 2008 21:05:20 GMT -6 Aspra Roseta Laira said:

3. My favorite passage in "The Snows of Kilimanjaro" was the irony that this character, a writer, thinks about all of his unwritten stories before he dies, yet we are reading about them as he dies -- somehow they were written. The most memorable story is that of Williamson, the bombing officer, who is shot by a stick bomb, and the argument about "our Lord never sending you anything you could not bear" I guess the pain of the wound is also a symbol of the pain of life in general.

Good. Note the hidden bitter humor in that in the end, that which he could not bear was the weight of hyena-death on his chest.

Apr 22, 2008 21:05:20 GMT -6 Aspra Roseta Laira said:

4. Further, I would like you to find a section of a couple of paragraphs and identify and explain the underlying symbolism or meaning behind them.
The most obvious symbol is that of the hyena. Since (at the time I'm writing), I'm the first to submit my answers, I'll go for the obvious.

The hyena first appears after they drink together (the wife has consented to drinking with her husband whom she earlier refused a drink -- perhaps she's giving up on him?) The hyena is the "one that makes the noise at night" while Harry is sleeping, dreaming about his old, vibrant, passionate life. Clearly, the hyena is a symbol for death, but at this point it seems to appear during these dreams, when Harry possibly seeks to die? As it appears, "It came with a rush; not a rush of water nor of wind; but of a sudden evil-smelling emptiness and the odd thing was that the hyena slipped lightly along the edges of it." The hyena is later referred to as death by Harry: "death had come and rested its head on the foot of the cot. ... 'Never believe any of that about a scythe and a skull ... it can have a wide snout like a hyena." Sorry to take the most obvious.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the obvious. Now my question to you is: is the hyena real at any point, or not? What in the text leads you to your answer?

Apr 22, 2008 21:35:52 GMT -6 Sir X. Pol Briga said:

Q1. In Undefeated, Manuel is old, but in some ways like a young boy just coming out after his injury, and Zapato in a way is acting like his father, as his protector. Yes, he is paid, but not much, and he is a piccadore out of a sense of duty, such as a father to a son. The other picadores could also be fatherless, as Manuel calls them bastard for missing with the pike.

Manuel is angry with the picadors for missing, and calls them a common epithet, but it is an interesting point I hadn't noted before. The picadors were the individuals responsible for stabbing the bull and helping weaken it, so that it would tire and lower its head for a proper charge later at the matador... their proper performance was vital to the matador's handling of the bull. They had to leave the bull in the right mood and positioned in the correct manner in the ring, and Manuel, a former artist of bullfighting, is resigned to bitter namecalling when he notes the depths to which he has sunk. But this is a very good analysis, and good job noticing the "bastard" thing, which I had not.

Apr 22, 2008 21:35:52 GMT -6 Sir X. Pol Briga said:

Q2. Harry calls her a "rich bitch" and throughout the story beyond that is only "the woman" and "she" and never a name until the very end dream sequence where she is named Helen. Overall the a nagging oppression of "bloody money". The money is a crutch, it allows for comforts yes, but it also has obligations that waste time, and the writer in this case is tortured by the things left undone now that life is slipping away.

Good... do you think it is the time-wasting obligations that actually bothered Harry? You might want to read that again, and pay special attention to how he let his talent get "flabby"... this section was a bitter jab at F. Scott Fitzgerald, who wrote a book about the very rich and pretended at being a spy amongst them. Hemingway is here pointing out that being rich changes you into a different person, and dulls and blunts one's talent. Fitzgerald's second book, after his success, did poorly and was poor. Hemingway said that he had been like a butterfly who flew beautifully but didn't know how, and when he had actually learned, he could no longer do it.

Apr 22, 2008 21:35:52 GMT -6 Sir X. Pol Briga said:

Q3/4. Snows:
THe mountains of Colorado and of Austria come rushing to mind of those described:
"... the fast-slipping rush of running powder-snow on crust, singing "Hi! Ho! adn Rolly!" as your ran down the last stretch to the steep drop, taking is straight, then running the orchard in three turns and out across the ditch an onto the icy road behind the inn. Knocking your bindings loose, kicking the skis free and leaning them up against the wooden wall of the inn, the lamplight coming out the window, where inside, in the smoky, new-wine smelling warmth, they were playing the accordion."
This coming from a man with a leg that will not let him stand, let alone ski, as he remembers what it was like.

also something that reminds me now of what is going on in Zimbabwe is like what happened in the Weimar Republic:
"AT the hotel in Triberg the proprietor had a fine season. It was very plesant and we were all great friends. The next year came the inflation, and the money he had made the year before was not enough to buy supplies to open the hotel and he hanged himself."
It would be interesting if time had shifted 50 years and Hemingway were to write about the policies of Robert Mugabe.

Hemingway wrote an excellent piece of journalism about the hyperinflation in Germany in that period, it's interesting you picked that out. It's in my copy of By-Line Hemingway, I'll see if I can find it online somewhere.

Apr 22, 2008 21:35:52 GMT -6 Sir X. Pol Briga said:

Undefeated:
Foreshadowing ---
"Say, give me another shot of that", Manuel said. He had poured the brandy the waiter had slopped into his glass and drank it while they were talking.
The original waiter poured his glass full mechanically, and the three of them went out of the room talking.
From the story, he is just coming off injury, and understands he is not likely to get a good chance next, but instead of conserving his fortitude he proceeds to get drunk. At the time, perhaps alcohol was in some ways perceived as medicinal, but deep down he knows that it will only dull his abilities, as he grinds towards doom. Of course, later Zurito does the same thing, tipping his cognac from his saucer to his glass, but he does it in control as an afterthought, as thrift, not to get more.

You have touched an interesting item again... you are very insightful tonight! In Hemingway's stories, you may have noticed by now that the hero or protagonist is always neat. He may be drunk, but he doesn't spill. We will see this in better clarity later, with "A Clean, Well-Lighted Place," but Hemingway is all about dignity. It is fine to be sad or old or wounded, as long as you have dignity about it. Dignity is the essence of manhood to Hemingway. Manuel has it. His magnificence, when he is gored repeatedly and still stands to straighten his sword on his knee and attack again, is in contrast to the sloppy negligence of the picadors or the waiter.

Very good so far from you two... let's see some more!

[Róibeard Laira]

Question 1

I think in Undefeated Manuel's brother who was killed bullfighting is a connection to Hemmingway's father's suicide.

Choosing to be a bullfighter and then dying from it can be thought of as suicide. And this was a family member of Manuel's.

I can't really see what it means, though, because he is mentioned only briefly and doesn't have much effect on the story. The only thing is that Manuel keeps bullfighting after his brother was killed.

[Róibeard Laira]

Question 2

When it comes to money in his life, Hemmingway does seem to get by with financial help from someone else a lot of the time. This may just be true about a lot of writers, though.

In "Snows" When the main character starts being supported by people with money he neglects his writing. Now that he is dying he is upset about this, but at the time he took the comfortable route in life.

I think the specific epithet is when he calls the woman a "rich bitch".

[Róibeard Laira]

Question 3

My favorite passage in "Undefeated" was when the bull came charging out and Hemmingway described the bullfighting techniques. The simple direct descriptiveness of the writing fit well with the action, and it was interesting to learn the terminology used for various things.

My favorite passage in "Snows" was the man's halucination as he was dying of being rescued and being flown to Kilimanjaro instead of the hospital. I guess the descriptions are good, and it's hopeful. I think the man was happy about going to Kilimanjaro. And the thing in the title is finally mentioned in the story.

[Róibeard Laira]

Question 4

I'm going to discuss the symbolism of the first flashback in "Snows". I'm choosing this because I remember realizing after getting in to the story a ways that Kilimanjaro hadn't been mentioned yet, and I was wondering what the snows of Kilimanjaro might be in the story.

I realized the only place it had mentioned snow was this first flashback. I thought snow might symbolize his life before he got in with people with money, but none of the other flashbacks to that time have snow.

So I think snow represents death. Ths is the only flashback where there is death. And when I got to the end of the story he sees the snows of Kilimanjaro when he is dead.

[Aspra Roseta Laira]

Apr 22, 2008 23:06:22 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

Now my question to you is: is the hyena real at any point, or not? What in the text leads you to your answer?

I believe the hyena was real at one point. The reason I think this is because Helen (whose name I didn't catch until after reading X Pol's answer) refers to it. She is the one who finds it a nasty creature. I believe there really was a hyena, but it comes to be a symbol in Harry's mind rather than a flesh and blood hyena.

I'm still going to read Undefeated and get back to you at a later time.

[King John]

Last week's questions, answered kinda late.

1. In "The Undefeated", I thought we might be seeing two different sorts of "fatherhood" modelled in contrasting ways. Retana is the older male authority figure, whose decisions (and whims) largely control Manuel's life, and whose interest in Manuel is simply to profit from him; whereas Zapato is the strong, caring man who tries to teach Manuel and protect him and help him, even at some serious risk to himself. Could Hemingway be playing here with different images of fatherhood? — abandonment and selfishness, vs. love and nurturing?

2. As everyone has pointed out, the "rich bitch" reference is on point here. There's a tension between the narrator's obvious willingness to accept the woman's money on the one hand, and (on the other) his contempt both for her (for giving it) and for himself (for accepting it and therefore somehow injuring his artistic powers).

3. My favourite passage in "The Snows of Kilimanjaro" is the two long paragraphs just before the end of the story, beginning "The boys had picked up the cot", a highly visual — even cinematic — description of flying over forest and mountains in a small airplane. (I kept thinking how few of Hemingway's readers had probably had a chance to fly like that — even though they might have seen black-and-white film footage taken from the air, his description conveys more than even a film can.) The sudden changes of scene, the quick changes in perspective, the contrasting distances of the interior of the plane, the ground close by, and the mountain in the distance — he's caught it all, hasn't he? Beautiful writing.

I liked the passages in "The Undefeated" about the "substitute bull-fight critic of El Heraldo". There's a kind of sardonic contrast at work here in the different views of the same bullfight. It means so desperately much to Manuel — life and death, literally, or at the very least his career —, and so very little to the critic (not even the regular critic, who might be expected to regard bullfighting as really important, but a *substitute* critic), who can barely bring himself to pay enough attention to the fight to describe what's happening, and decides he doesn't really need to. Bitter irony.

4. I was intrigued in "Snows" by the image of whiteness — the snow on Kilimanjaro, the killing snow in Bulgaria, the pleasant snow at Schrunz "so white it hurt your eyes", but also all the other things described as "white" in the course of the story. There's wildlife — the Tommies (whatever *they* are) "that showed minute and white against the yellow", and zebras "white against the green of the bush". (And surely the whole point of a zebra is that he *isn't* just white? What's going on here?) There are the "white ballet skirts" of the dead Greek soldiers. In Harry's revery about his childhood, there are the "log house, chinked white with mortar", destroyed but "rebuilt now and painted white"; and the "white road" that led to the fishing stream.

What does all this mean? I really haven't a clue. It's one of those sets of symbols that seem to be operating more at an unconscious than a strictly symbolic level; or maybe I'm just missing what it's all about. But this whole story is far too carefully written for it to be coincidence, or meaningless.

There's a paragraph in Hemingway's "Preface" to The Short Stories, written in 1938, that touches on some of the same themes about writing that "The Snows of Kilimanjaro" explores:

In going where you have to go, and doing what you have to do, and seeing what you have to see, you dull and blunt the instrument you write with. But I would rather have it bent and dull and know I had to put it on the grindstone again and hammer it into shape and put a whetstone to it, and know that I had something to write about, than to have it bright and shining and nothing to say, or smooth and well-oiled in the closet, but unused.

I'm not sure he's right, although presumably he knows more about writing than I do; but I ask myself how wonderful it would be, to be able to be wrong in such beautiful cadences?

— John R

[Sir X. Pol Briga]

Apr 28, 2008 22:45:28 GMT -6 King John said:

Last week's questions, answered kinda late.

3. My favourite passage in "The Snows of Kilimanjaro" is the two long paragraphs just before the end of the story, beginning "The boys had picked up the cot", a highly visual — even cinematic — description of flying over forest and mountains in a small airplane. (I kept thinking how few of Hemingway's readers had probably had a chance to fly like that — even though they might have seen black-and-white film footage taken from the air, his description conveys more than even a film can.) The sudden changes of scene, the quick changes in perspective, the contrasting distances of the interior of the plane, the ground close by, and the mountain in the distance — he's caught it all, hasn't he? Beautiful writing.

— John R

At least in my edition, as opposed to the other writings that were remembered, or in the imagination, this section was not italicized - is that the case with others?