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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 15, 2008 13:15:10 GMT -6
Here is the link to today's lecture. It's up a little later in the day than usual, but it doesn't seem as though many people were reading it earlier in any case. Please proceed to answer the questions I ask here, and of course ask any of your own that you may have.
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Post by Aspra Roseta Laira on Apr 15, 2008 20:05:05 GMT -6
Professor, First, I thought this would be an appropriate example of Cubism given the reading material: www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/viewonezoom.asp?dep=21&viewmode=0&mark=1&item=1994%2E486(Fernand Léger, Woman with a Cat, 1921, oil on canvas, Metropolitan Museum of Art, NY.) There was recently a great article about Stein in Discover Magazine -- not sure if any of you read that (or was it Reader's Digest -- they are both in the same location in our house, the loo). I believe the cat in the first assigned story represents the woman's nurturing -- a baby, someone to care for. Once she is determined to rescue it, she also wants to grow her hair and find her more feminine side. I think she is ready to become a mother, but her partner/husband is not ready to become a father. The relationship between the character's androgony and the conflict has everything to do with her desire to nurture and become more "feminine" -- she is ready to fall into that role in her life, to grow up from a girlish boy to a woman. I think the stories were well paired in that they both had a theme of motherhood. I think the man and woman are discussing her scheduled abortion. She is not at ease with it, he is. But clearly he wants her to be at ease with it also. The need to nurture is innate in both female characters. I noticed that when the male said something to the effect of "the world is ours" ("We can have the whole world." (213)) and she countered with "It isn 't ours." I think she is referring to the fact that the world belongs to the future, not the present. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but that's my interpretation. Hidden beneath the surface? Well, elephants are hardly hideable. I believe that the topic is heavy on their minds, and they are trying hard to avoid it by getting drunk. That doesn't work for either one of them, though.
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Sir X. Pol Briga
Talossan since 11-10-2005 Knight since 12-26-2009
59 is an important number - keep it prime in the thoughts of Talossa
Posts: 1,227
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Post by Sir X. Pol Briga on Apr 15, 2008 20:14:11 GMT -6
Ooh oooh - I want to post this one before someone beats me to it, since it would relate to later Hemingway.... It was not repatriated to Spain until 1981 as specified by the artist it could not return until there was some semblance of democracy in the country. Cat Now as to the Cat (and kudos for Aspra for finding a cat painting) I take as being desire in general, as the cat represents things that are missing in the relationship - whether it would be a baby or not I'm not sure, as Aspra commented. She wants a new silver service, she wants it to be spring, she wants new clothes and to comb her hair out in front of the mirror, but she will be satisfied with the cat. And, the proprietor recognizes a need in one of his guests, even as the husband ignores it, and provides what is asked for. And perhaps insinuating that the proprietor can care for the woman (or should I say girl?) - she is referred to as an American Wife and an American Girl in the story. The man and girl theme is in the next story as well. This relates to the next question - not dealing with man and woman, but man and girl, in a dominant relationship. The androgyny? I guess I don't see it as much, yes there is the passage about the style of hair, but that really gets back to desire, the "girl" wanting things a different way, or at least occationally different, than what George wants or cares for. Hills While there is a nuance that the story deals with the decision about an abortion, I found myself subcounciously thinking, hmm, maybe in a later time it could be just as easliy read as a desire for the man for his girl to have some kind of cosmetic surgery - perhaps instead of "letting a litte air in" it could be letting a littly silicon in, or botox in, etc. Without the explicit statement, the story can remain mysterious and be interpreted in different ways. The similarity to the stories to me gets back to the man and girl context, the superiority of the male, with the girl like an animal on a leash, trying to go this way and that yet controlled and manipulated, and when the man tries to sooth the beast it still knows it is under control and either strains against the bond, or retreats into a shell, but cannot suggest a course of action at the status of an equal. The description of the location of the station perhaps foreshadows the story, where out in the bright sunlight near the hills the stark station sits, with only the smaller darker areas for people to take refuge from the glaring environment. The couple must make a decision in the dark, the man wants a certain outcome, and the girl is resigned but not necessarily in agreement, as she looks at the ares which has no other refuge. XPB
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Post by Aspra Roseta Laira on Apr 15, 2008 20:26:23 GMT -6
X. Pol Briga, I'd love to hear more about this piece. Whose is it? What is it? I'm so curious, but I find it would be faster for me to ask you than try to do some research on my own.
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Post by Róibeard Laira on Apr 15, 2008 20:45:10 GMT -6
Here's an example of cubism in art www.cubistro.com/cubotimeline.htmlFrom this timeline it seems like cubism started by departing form perspective, then became very abstract, and then came back to be less abstract, but very iconic.
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Post by Çelís del Þeracour on Apr 15, 2008 20:52:01 GMT -6
THere are many examples of Cubism on the internet. One site I really enjoyed is: www.eyeconart.net/history/cubism.htmWhen I read the story "Cat in the Rain", I see it as an analogy about the roles of America and Europe following World War 1. The woman, is quite appropriately American or representative of America. The kitten represents Europe the way the woman wants it to be. Her original goal is to save what was innocent "the kitten" also demonstrated in the "long hair of youth" - the "way it was before". The result, is that the American only got the chance to save an old cat - not the innocent kitten. I think this Old Cat is an analogy for Europe following World War 1 the way it really was, and not how America wanted it to be. I think that the relationship bewteen the man and the woman may be indicative of the recognition that the innocence is already lost. The man understands that things can not be the way they were, and he is okay with that fact. In the second story, I believe the couple is talking about having an abortion. As with the first story, the woman wants to nurture - she is hesitant to have the procedure. The man, however, is pressuring her to do it, he says things will be like they were before, but the woman knows differently. She knows that they will never be the same again. I think it is appropriate that they are referring to the "White Elephants" which draws on a more modern Idiom of "the Elephant in the Room" or the obvious situation that needs to be discussed but is ignored. Interestingly, I could not find any reference to that term being used prior to 1950 so it is only a coincidence that she sees the hills as "white elephants". But rather than deal with the "Elephant in the Room" they continue to sit and drink. As far as the description of the location in his first few sentences. the atmosphere is tense, no shade - no place to hide from the sun. I believe that this also sets the stage for the stressful situation that the couple are discussing.
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Sir X. Pol Briga
Talossan since 11-10-2005 Knight since 12-26-2009
59 is an important number - keep it prime in the thoughts of Talossa
Posts: 1,227
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Post by Sir X. Pol Briga on Apr 15, 2008 20:52:13 GMT -6
X. Pol Briga, I'd love to hear more about this piece. Whose is it? What is it? I'm so curious, but I find it would be faster for me to ask you than try to do some research on my own. It is by Pablo Picasso, called Guernica, about the bombing of that town by the Luftwaffe in support of Franco. Later Heminway writes For Whom The Bell Tolls which has the setting of the Spanish Civil War. I have read that book (long ago), but had never read anything else of his, and it is interesting to contrast the larger works with the concise scenes of the short stories.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 15, 2008 21:01:52 GMT -6
Excellent, that is indeed Cubist. There was recently a great article about Stein in Discover Magazine -- not sure if any of you read that (or was it Reader's Digest -- they are both in the same location in our house, the loo). Nope, didn't catch that one. I'm surprised, she's not often spoken of. I believe the cat in the first assigned story represents the woman's nurturing -- a baby, someone to care for. Once she is determined to rescue it, she also wants to grow her hair and find her more feminine side. I think she is ready to become a mother, but her partner/husband is not ready to become a father. Excellent, that is exactly how it is generally interpreted. You hit the nail right on the head there. The relationship between the character's androgony and the conflict has everything to do with her desire to nurture and become more "feminine" -- she is ready to fall into that role in her life, to grow up from a girlish boy to a woman. Very good, that is an interesting perspective. Also, note how the husband "likes it that way," and looks unfavorably on her changing it. The discussion about her hair indicates that he wants to maintain her look, which is "like a boy's," rather than feminize herself... because perhaps that feminization would imply maternity. Very good, again, Aspra! I think the stories were well paired in that they both had a theme of motherhood. I think the man and woman are discussing her scheduled abortion. She is not at ease with it, he is. But clearly he wants her to be at ease with it also. The need to nurture is innate in both female characters. I noticed that when the male said something to the effect of "the world is ours" ("We can have the whole world." (213)) and she countered with "It isn 't ours." I think she is referring to the fact that the world belongs to the future, not the present. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but that's my interpretation. You are batting a thousand (or whatever a really good number in baseball would be) tonight. That is a good interpretation in the latter part of your answer, and not one I had heard before. Also, consider the subtext... early in the story, she bitterly says that what they do is travel and try new drinks, which would imply a free-wheeling life. He wants her to get an abortion - presumably to return to that life. So when he says "we can have the whole world," he perhaps means in that wild and young exploratory way... she seems to think everything has been spoiled, but wants it to be "just like the way it was." Hidden beneath the surface? Well, elephants are hardly hideable. I believe that the topic is heavy on their minds, and they are trying hard to avoid it by getting drunk. That doesn't work for either one of them, though. Why don't you return to that opening description, and read it again in the context of the rest of the story. You might find something else. Ooh oooh - I want to post this one before someone beats me to it, since it would relate to later Hemingway.... It was not repatriated to Spain until 1981 as specified by the artist it could not return until there was some semblance of democracy in the country. Very good, yes! A famous painting, indeed. Cat Now as to the Cat (and kudos for Aspra for finding a cat painting) I take as being desire in general, as the cat represents things that are missing in the relationship - whether it would be a baby or not I'm not sure, as Aspra commented. She wants a new silver service, she wants it to be spring, she wants new clothes and to comb her hair out in front of the mirror, but she will be satisfied with the cat. And, the proprietor recognizes a need in one of his guests, even as the husband ignores it, and provides what is asked for. And perhaps insinuating that the proprietor can care for the woman (or should I say girl?) - she is referred to as an American Wife and an American Girl in the story. The man and girl theme is in the next story as well. This relates to the next question - not dealing with man and woman, but man and girl, in a dominant relationship. The androgyny? I guess I don't see it as much, yes there is the passage about the style of hair, but that really gets back to desire, the "girl" wanting things a different way, or at least occationally different, than what George wants or cares for. Some interesting comments here, yes. You feel the cat is a stand-in for desire in general? Do you think there is any deeper symbolism to be found in the proprietor giving the wife a cat when her husband would not? Hills While there is a nuance that the story deals with the decision about an abortion, I found myself subcounciously thinking, hmm, maybe in a later time it could be just as easliy read as a desire for the man for his girl to have some kind of cosmetic surgery - perhaps instead of "letting a litte air in" it could be letting a littly silicon in, or botox in, etc. Without the explicit statement, the story can remain mysterious and be interpreted in different ways. That is very true, and maybe in twenty years they'll think it's about that. But I am glad to see you caught what they were speaking about. Hemingway said that he once witnessed a conversation like this while waiting for a train, and that memory was the source. The similarity to the stories to me gets back to the man and girl context, the superiority of the male, with the girl like an animal on a leash, trying to go this way and that yet controlled and manipulated, and when the man tries to sooth the beast it still knows it is under control and either strains against the bond, or retreats into a shell, but cannot suggest a course of action at the status of an equal. In the context of this analogy, what do you think the girl's final outburst ("Would you pleasepleasepleaseplease") means? The description of the location of the station perhaps foreshadows the story, where out in the bright sunlight near the hills the stark station sits, with only the smaller darker areas for people to take refuge from the glaring environment. The couple must make a decision in the dark, the man wants a certain outcome, and the girl is resigned but not necessarily in agreement, as she looks at the ares which has no other refuge. XPB Excellent final analysis, Xhorxh. Very good, and very apt.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 15, 2008 21:06:36 GMT -6
A good site on the subject, yes. When I read the story "Cat in the Rain", I see it as an analogy about the roles of America and Europe following World War 1. The woman, is quite appropriately American or representative of America. The kitten represents Europe the way the woman wants it to be. Her original goal is to save what was innocent "the kitten" also demonstrated in the "long hair of youth" - the "way it was before". The result, is that the American only got the chance to save an old cat - not the innocent kitten. I think this Old Cat is an analogy for Europe following World War 1 the way it really was, and not how America wanted it to be. I think that the relationship bewteen the man and the woman may be indicative of the recognition that the innocence is already lost. The man understands that things can not be the way they were, and he is okay with that fact. That's an interesting analogy you have come up with. I had not heard that one before. In your analogy, then what role would you analogize for the proprietor or his wife? In the second story, I believe the couple is talking about having an abortion. As with the first story, the woman wants to nurture - she is hesitant to have the procedure. The man, however, is pressuring her to do it, he says things will be like they were before, but the woman knows differently. She knows that they will never be the same again. I think it is appropriate that they are referring to the "White Elephants" which draws on a more modern Idiom of "the Elephant in the Room" or the obvious situation that needs to be discussed but is ignored. Interestingly, I could not find any reference to that term being used prior to 1950 so it is only a coincidence that she sees the hills as "white elephants". But rather than deal with the "Elephant in the Room" they continue to sit and drink. The "white elephant" is something you can look up... it is actually an idiom unto itself. It refers to a sacred white elephant that by legend a rajah of India would give to a noble in disfavour; the noble had to care for the sacred animal at great expense. In other words, it was a high honour that was absolutely unwanted. Other critics have pointed to the "elephant in the room" thing too, however, and it holds up quite well too. As far as the description of the location in his first few sentences. the atmosphere is tense, no shade - no place to hide from the sun. I believe that this also sets the stage for the stressful situation that the couple are discussing. I would agree with that, but do you see anything more if you take another look?
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Sir X. Pol Briga
Talossan since 11-10-2005 Knight since 12-26-2009
59 is an important number - keep it prime in the thoughts of Talossa
Posts: 1,227
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Post by Sir X. Pol Briga on Apr 15, 2008 21:16:50 GMT -6
Certainly there is a latent topic that the American man (identified only at the start of the story as such) is no match for the wiles of the Italian proprietor, and that indeed he should be able to satisfy the girls in many other ways.
This is where the girl on the leash lashes out, just as a dog that is whimpering starts barking if for no other reason to drown out other sounds, if only for awhile.
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Post by Çelís del Þeracour on Apr 15, 2008 21:18:34 GMT -6
I think that the proprietor and his wife are representative - in my analogy synopsis - of the European people. They are both respectful and at the same time, somewhat patronizing of them.
I think that there is an analogy in the description of the location which references back to the woman's anatomy, specifically from the waist down. The hills were "long and white" referring to her legs, the "curtain of beads" then further in the building which would be located at the "womb" in this analogy. This is the crux of their discussion, this is where they talk about their situation.
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Post by Róibeard Laira on Apr 15, 2008 22:44:04 GMT -6
What does the cat represent?
I think the cat represents sex. The girl's husband seems to say the right things, but isn't really very interested in her.
At the beginning when she says, "I'm going down and get that kitty."
He says, "I'll do it"
But he keeps on reading, and winds up saying "Don't get wet" as she leaves. He obviously isn't that interested in her or what she wants.
The hotel-keeper, on the other hand, is very interested in her. He pays attention to her. He sent the maid with an umbrella to keep her from getting wet. He didn't just make a casual remark as she left.
And her desire for the cat isn't really rational. She even says herself, "I wanted it so much, I don't know why I wanted it so much. I wanted that poor kitty. It isn't any fun to be a poor kitty out in the rain."
I think what the cat represents is a sexual connection with real intimacy. It's interesting that the object of her desire is a dependent figure who she wants to rescue.
At the end of the story the girl wants so many sensuous things like silver tableware and candles, and for it to be spring, and to brush her hair and have new clothes, but her husband isn't even listening.
And at the end, the hotel-keeper sends her a cat.
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Post by Róibeard Laira on Apr 15, 2008 22:53:23 GMT -6
What is the relationship between the girl's androgeny and the conflict between the man and the girl?
It seems like the girl is acting more masculine in wanting to take charge of her life, and yet what she wants is a feminine desire to take care of something, and have the intimacy she doesn't get form her husband.
I wonder if this story is motivated by Gertrude Stein's lesbianism. Hemmingway is glorifying the image of a powerful woman who can separate herself form the traditional male-female roles and both care about something and do something about it.
The girl pretty much wears the pants in the family. The husband doesn't really do anything in the story except sit there and read and ignore his wife.
The conflict is rooted in the fact that he is a boring lump and she is an energetic, caring person, and she deals with this by taking an active role and essentially becomes the man. This probably had a lot more impact in Hemmingway's time.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 15, 2008 23:17:07 GMT -6
What does the cat represent? I think the cat represents sex. The girl's husband seems to say the right things, but isn't really very interested in her. At the beginning when she says, "I'm going down and get that kitty." He says, "I'll do it" But he keeps on reading, and winds up saying "Don't get wet" as she leaves. He obviously isn't that interested in her or what she wants. The hotel-keeper, on the other hand, is very interested in her. He pays attention to her. He sent the maid with an umbrella to keep her from getting wet. He didn't just make a casual remark as she left. And her desire for the cat isn't really rational. She even says herself, "I wanted it so much, I don't know why I wanted it so much. I wanted that poor kitty. It isn't any fun to be a poor kitty out in the rain." I think what the cat represents is a sexual connection with real intimacy. It's interesting that the object of her desire is a dependent figure who she wants to rescue. At the end of the story the girl wants so many sensuous things like silver tableware and candles, and for it to be spring, and to brush her hair and have new clothes, but her husband isn't even listening. And at the end, the hotel-keeper sends her a cat. In your interpretation, then, she will cheat on her husband with the hotel-keeper? Is that where you were going with that? What is the relationship between the girl's androgeny and the conflict between the man and the girl? It seems like the girl is acting more masculine in wanting to take charge of her life, and yet what she wants is a feminine desire to take care of something, and have the intimacy she doesn't get form her husband. I wonder if this story is motivated by Gertrude Stein's lesbianism. Hemmingway is glorifying the image of a powerful woman who can separate herself form the traditional male-female roles and both care about something and do something about it. The girl pretty much wears the pants in the family. The husband doesn't really do anything in the story except sit there and read and ignore his wife. The conflict is rooted in the fact that he is a boring lump and she is an energetic, caring person, and she deals with this by taking an active role and essentially becomes the man. This probably had a lot more impact in Hemmingway's time. I am curious as to how you conclude that the girl wears the pants... doesn't she spend the whole story begging for something she doesn't get, until a stranger gives it to her?
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Post by Aspra Roseta Laira on Apr 15, 2008 23:56:44 GMT -6
X. Pol Briga, I'd love to hear more about this piece. Whose is it? What is it? I'm so curious, but I find it would be faster for me to ask you than try to do some research on my own. It is by Pablo Picasso, called Guernica, about the bombing of that town by the Luftwaffe in support of Franco. Later Hemingway writes For Whom The Bell Tolls which has the setting of the Spanish Civil War. I have read that book (long ago), but had never read anything else of his, and it is interesting to contrast the larger works with the concise scenes of the short stories. Amazing piece! I don't know what happened to my original post, however. I meant to ask something poignant about it, though. [Sadly, long forgotten.] In the end, I wonder if Hemingway found any sense -- any meaning -- in anything he wrote (or did). I think the ending to his life should only tell us how off -- wrong -- he was. Then again, I find his words to be very real. Resonant. That probably is true through many generations, right Professor?
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