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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 17, 2008 13:55:06 GMT -6
Concerning IIB: This is just a suggestion and I know it has been discussed before but should we consider simplifying our flag? This is just a personal opinion and I am only a ceremonial leader of the province but don't we think it is really really crowded? Could someone explain the purpose of all the attributes on our flag? I will absolutely and always oppose any change to our magnificent flag. Let other provinces have simple and easy-to-remember flags... we stand alone in our prominent and passionate complexity! I can explain the elements easily: the central device, the anchor, comes from the first symbol adopted by Port Maxhestic when it was created out of the South Territory in 1985. Obviously it is a reference to the seaport nature of the province. The banner upon it is the date of our whole joined province's founding, August 1st, 1993. The anchor is so prominent because it has remained constant in almost all the years of Maxhestic (and later Maritiimi-Maxhestic) existence. The cross over the whole of the flag serves to divide its elements up, obviously. In the upper left is an homage to the national flag, which also references the territorial status of Maritiimi, a status it arguably held for many years, even to such a point as to openly revolt and attempt to secede in 1986. In the lower right, we have a reference to the colors of Maritiimi, taken from a long-defunct provincial arms from 1989, which now also serve as colors for the whole province. So the whole of the flag joins together the twin heritages of Maritiimi and Port Maxhestic, linking them and paying tribute to their long and potent history. It is one of our province's most important symbols, and should never be abandoned for the sake of the foolish simplicity favored by our neighbors. Concerning IIIC: Our national voting age is 14. Why do we want to make voting age in our assembly age 18? Concerning election intervals I am assuming that that is set forth in connection with federal timing. I deliberately did not include election intervals in this document, so that such can be set by law. I intend to propose, as soon as this document or its successor is ratified, a bill that would indeed tie provincial elections to the national ones (we aren't a federation, incidentally). The age requirement for the assembly is intended to reflect our province's aged majesty. If there is opposition in this chamber I am willing to alter it. Concerning V: Oy vey, this is merely a question of cosmetics and semantics but "Emergency Dictator"? Could we maybe term it "Interim Governor" or "Temporary Potentate"? Yes, I know it is merely cosmetics but S:reu Davis is there any possibility of rejiggering it to improve the connotation of the office? You touch on it with a pin, Grand General Secretary! It is intended to have an abysmal and authoritarian connotation! Such an office is a last resort, and I have tried to ensure that it will only ever be temporary. It should be embarrassing and stigmatizing while it exists, so as to get rid of it swiftly. Your proposed titles are indeed better: less obnoxious, and more dignified. But we don't want a dictator who is comfortable with a job, because the office's express purpose is to render itself obsolete.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Apr 17, 2008 14:19:25 GMT -6
The cross over the whole of the flag serves to divide its elements up, obviously. The cross and the overall layout of the flag also evoke the War Ensign of the German Empire, and the War Ensign of the North German Confederation before that. This reflects the German heritage of many Milwaukeeans and many early Talossans (and leading Maritiimi-Maxhestican Duke von Metairia in particular). For the same reason, the countries of Germany, Liechtenstein, and Austria fall into M-M's geographic zone for citizenship assignment purposes. Compare to the obvious Italian influence on Benito's flag, and the fact that Italy is in Benito's geographic zone.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Apr 18, 2008 7:18:35 GMT -6
Thanks for the enlightening explanations, S:reu Davis and Cresti. If we want to represent Germanic heritage then aren't there options other than the German empire or confederation? I can think of far more beautiful symbols of German heritage than the ones that are currently on our flag. As a disclaimer, please note that my opinions here are only of a personal nature.
Besides, the voting age which I really think should match the national voting age I am looking forward to a vote on ratification. Should we move forward with consideration of the draft?
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Apr 18, 2008 8:21:08 GMT -6
If we want to represent Germanic heritage then aren't there options other than the German empire or confederation? I can think of far more beautiful symbols of German heritage than the ones that are currently on our flag. Maybe, but not ones that would also suit the province's Jahnist (Duke von Metairia) history. Unless you replaced the cross with a giant Prussian eagle or something.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Apr 18, 2008 9:20:08 GMT -6
Cresti, what are you some kind of mind-reader or something? How did you know that I like giant Prussian eagles?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 18, 2008 14:12:13 GMT -6
Thanks for the enlightening explanations, S:reu Davis and Cresti. If we want to represent Germanic heritage then aren't there options other than the German empire or confederation? I can think of far more beautiful symbols of German heritage than the ones that are currently on our flag. As a disclaimer, please note that my opinions here are only of a personal nature. Well, our flag is part of our provincial traditions, and I don't see a compelling reason to change it. The discussions was needed, though. Besides, the voting age which I really think should match the national voting age I am looking forward to a vote on ratification. Should we move forward with consideration of the draft? Well, okay. I will change that and prepare the next (and final) iteration.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Apr 18, 2008 21:20:43 GMT -6
I look forward to voting on the...next iteration. I will leave it to the assembly to determine whether it is final.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Apr 18, 2008 21:29:57 GMT -6
I vote yes.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 18, 2008 21:32:32 GMT -6
This last version would be the final, but some sections are still description of what will be there, rather than the material itself. Section I, for example, still says "Laying out of what it is supposed to be, and what it is not. Affirm dominance of OrgLaw, and assert rights of citizens. It shall be considered in perpetuity the fulfillment of the Organic requirement for rules of operations, XVII.9d. Shall only be repealed or amended by process detailed within document." I am happy to incorporate any material other assemblymen have to offer, of course, but over the past months I have just been slowly doing it myself, replacing the guidelines with the document itself.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 19, 2008 23:22:42 GMT -6
Final draft, submitted for approval by the convention. I'm pretty drunk and my girl is asleep, but I'll be damned it that is going to stop me from finishing this fiiiiiiine constitution. Other provinces: IN YOUR FACE. I. Nature of documentThis constitution shall serve as the guide for the citizens and highest provincial law for the province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic. It shall be superseded only by the following: the dictates of the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa, the statutory law of the Kingdom of Talossa as pertaining to the specific limits of the power of the national Ziu as detailed within that Organic Law, and the rights of the citizenry as ensured by that Organic Law's Covenant of Rights and Freedoms. This constitution shall be considered to fulfill the requirements for provincial "rules of operations" as detailed in Article XVII, Section 9, paragraph D of the Organic Law, for the province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic alone, and shall be considered so in perpetuity. This constitution shall only be repealed or amended by the process detailed within this document. II. The ProvinceA. The province's name shall be Maritiimi-Maxhestic.
B. The provincial flag shall be emblazoned "Per Scandinavian cross, 1 Per fess vert and gules, 2 and 3 Argent, 4 Tierced in pale gules, or, and azure; a Scandinavian cross sable fimbriated argent and refimbriated sable; overall at the center of the cross a plate fimbriated sable charged with an anchor sable festooned at its head with a ribband azure bearing the legend "8-1-93" sable." [/i][/blockquote] III. Provincial assemblyA. Political power within Maritiimi-Maxhestic shall be invested in an Assembly, known as the Provincial Assembly of Maritiimi-Maxhestic. This Assembly shall have the power to make whatsoever laws it deems necessary to protect the rights of citizens and advance the province, limited only by the boundaries given within this document.
B. Limitations of assembly As established within the Organic Law, the Assembly shall pass no laws which would entail the repeal or amendment of the Organic Law or a national statute. No provincial statute shall be passed which contravene either that Organic Law or national statutes. Additionally, the Assembly shall pass no laws which would entail appropriation or outlays of public revenue or monies; nor shall it pass laws which establish a census or statistics; nor shall it pass laws which establish weights or measures; nor shall it pass laws which establish a provincial currency, coinage or legal tender; nor shall it pass laws which establish copyrights, patents, or trademarks. Any law, resolution, or amendment shall be deemed invalid and without effect to the extent to which it violates national law or Organic law.
C. Elections of assembly Candidates for assemblypersons shall be required to be at least fourteen years of age, a citizen of good standing of Maritiimi-Maxhestic, and free from any criminal record in Talossa. The time and manner of elections for assemblypersons shall be determined by law.
D. Functioning of assembly
1. Legislation for the good governing of Maritiimi-Maxhestic shall be the business of the Assembly. As such, actions undertaken by the Assembly in whatever nature must strictly pertain to the province and her interests. All other business shall be rightly conducted elsewhere.
2. The attitude and rhetoric of members of the assembly shall be at all times professional and cordial, as this shall be the most conducive to the operation of the assembly and good service of the people. It is requested to this end that members of the assembly address each other politely, as befitting elected legislators.
3. Legislation can take several forms, and shall be appropriately titled as according to the forms below.
4. A motion of the assembly shall express general intent to the exterior of the assembly or shall govern self-governance of that assembly. Inasmuch as shall be possible, it will not mandate behavior, but suggest it. Passage of a motion shall require a majority of votes of the assembly.
5. A provincial statute passed by the assembly shall establish the rule of law within the province. The primary purpose of statutes shall be to ensure the rights of the citizens of the province as guaranteed by the Organic Law of the nation, and the secondary purpose shall be to further the interests of Maritiimi-Maxhestic. Passage of a statute shall require a majority of votes of the assembly.
6. A referendum shall be an item of law which will change the system of governance, such as the establishment of a constitution. Passage of a referendum will require first a two-thirds majority of votes of the assembly, after which time it will be referred to the people. It will pass into law and be given force after approval of a majority of the people. E. Grand General Secretary The Grand General Secretary shall fulfill the position of premier and leader of the Assembly. He will have ceremonial power to represent the province as needed, but shall exercise no other power. He shall be elected by majority vote within the Assembly each term. He may be removed at any time by another majority vote of the Assembly, for any reason. IV. CunstaválA. A cunstavál shall be appointed by the reigning monarch of Talossa to serve as that personage's liaison within the province and formal represenative. In accordance with the Organic Law, this cunstavál shall have the following powers and no others:
1. The cunstavál shall possess a limited veto power upon bills put forward by the Assembly. Should the cunstavál veto a bill, it will return for consideration by the Assembly. This veto can be overturned by a simple majority of the Assembly. The cunstavál can veto a bill only once. 2. The cunstavál shall have the power to create provincial holidays, should the Assembly create such an institution. 3. The cunstavál shall have the power to grant provincial titles of nobility, should the Assembly create such an institution. 4. The cunstavál shall have the power to pardon those convicted of crimes by a provincial cort or commute their sentences, should the Assembly create such an institution. B. The term of the cunstavál shall be without end, unless the monarch of Talossa should remove him or appoint another in his place. V. Emergency PowersDefining the "time of good behavior" within the OrgLaw formally: a term within which interest and feasance has been exhibited by the citizenry, as measured by assembly activity. If an entire assembly term should pass without any activity by that assembly, consisting of a vote on at least one matter, the following term the province would be considered to be behaving badly. At such a time, the Cunstaval will wield all powers delegated to the Assembly and Grand General Secretary for this term and shall be titled "Emergency Dictator" within the province. The "Emergency Dictator" will be tasked with the responsibility of restoring the legitimate government to usefulness by inspiring provincial activity, and his powers will end with that term. Accordingly, the Emergency Powers will always expire after a time period of one term. VI. Judicial ReviewAll laws of the province shall be subject to challenge by citizens of province to the High Cort. That body shall be the only cort competent to rule over such laws. Lesser corts established by national statute shall be permitted jurisdiction over all other civil and criminal matters should they be created by the Assembly, and otherwise such matters will also be tried before the High Cort. VII. AmendmentsThis document may be amended only by a bill passed with a supermajority, wherein two-thirds of the members of the Assembly vote in favor, but such an amendation will not be valid unless it is further passed by a majority vote of the people. This document may be repealed by unanimous vote of the Assembly, but such a repealing shall not be valid unless it is further passed by a majority vote of the people.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Apr 20, 2008 17:27:14 GMT -6
With thanks to S:reu Davis for his completed draft of a proposed Constitution I would like to begin the voting process. If no one objects, do we think that a three days is sufficient time to review and render judgment?
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Apr 20, 2008 17:55:08 GMT -6
(um... you actually have the poll ending today ... in about half an hour...)
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Apr 20, 2008 18:32:04 GMT -6
Sorry, I will correct that. A new thread has been created and the expiration date for the poll this time is really 3 days.
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King John
King of Talossa
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Post by King John on Apr 21, 2008 9:36:26 GMT -6
May I weigh in here, with a handful of Organic concerns? Article VI section 10 of the OrgLaw provides that vacancies in the Senate will be filled on nomination by "the executive of the province". (Before the recent amendment to that section, it referred to "the executive officer".) I have always taken this to mean the Premier (or Grand General Secretary, in the case of Maritiimi-Maxhestic). This Organic power of the Premier would seem to contradict the provision in the proposed Provincial Constitution (III, E) that the Grand General Secretary shall exercise no power other than ceremonial. Further concerns have to do with the provision in the OrgLaw that a Provincial Constitution may not grant "to the King (and consequently to the Cunstavál as the King's representative in the Province) royal powers less extensive than those granted to the King on the national level, except that the provincial royal powers need not include a right of dissolution if provincial elections are held concurrently with Cosâ elections". The proposed Constitution, I believe, violates this provision in two specifics. First, a Provincial veto that can be overridden by a simple majority is a "less extensive" power than a National veto that requires two-thirds of the Cosa (and the Senate's concurrence) to override. And second, if Maritiimi-Maxhestic should establish a schedule for Provincial elections that's not concurrent with Cosa elections, the Cunstaval must have the power to dissolve the Provincial Assembly; but the proposed Constitution says he has "the following powers and no others" — and dissolution is not on the list. I'm slightly concerned, too, about the reflection (in the Provincial Constitution) of the King's powers of appointment at the national level. I have very little leeway, usually, in *whom* I appoint, but I do get to do a lot of appointments; and I think it would better if the Cunstaval had those same duties, mutatis muntandis, in the Province. — John R
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Apr 21, 2008 9:40:30 GMT -6
By the way, I should ask the pardon of the good citizens of Maritiimi-Maxhestic for not having kept up with this thread better, and not voicing these concerns earlier. In an ideal world, the Constable (or I) would have raised the flag at an earlier stage. My bad.
— John R
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