Post by King John on Jun 7, 2007 14:26:46 GMT -6
The grapheme çh (for the voiced velar fricative [G]) really has to go. The pronunciation guide says: “The voiced equivalent of c'h. A rare sound in Talossan, occurring chiefly in Berber loan words.” Yes, it’s rare. It appears in 19 Talossan words:
abçhad (=abjad). This is a loan word from Arabic, and the transliteration seems to be a mistake of Ben’s. The velar consonant there is gīm (usually [g]), not ghaim (usually [G]). We would do better to write abgad.
açharar (=to pile up). From Latin aggerare.
açhasoûr (=ostler). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber, and one would like to take Ben’s word for it. But Latin for ostler is agaso, so I don’t think so. If anything, Berber borrowed it from Talossan.
Afçhán (=Afghan) and Afçhánistán (=Afghanistan). These are loans from Pashto, of which I know next to nothing. Pashto does have [G], and I presume it’s the sound used here.
azaçhár (=plain, lowland). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber. It’s not clear to me why Talossan would borrow a Berber word to replace our own Rumán words like campus, planus, planities, aequor. (Unless maybe the Berbers borrowed aequor?)
baba-çhanúxh (=baba ghanouj). From Arabic, and again, the consonant is gīm, not ghaim.
Baçhdád (=Baghdad). Arabic again, and this time it IS ghaim.
faicáçh (=pagan priest). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber. What’s wrong with Rumán sacerdos, antistes, flamen? It’s not like Latin lacked words for priests.
faraçhogñhâ (=balderdash). Marked in the Treisoûr as from “Sardinian, Sicilian, Lucanian”, and maybe so. Sardinian does seem to have [G].
Haçhar (=Hagar). It’s a [g] in Hebrew, but for all I know it gets into Arabic as [G].
isnaçhoçhâ (=synagogue). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Rumán, whence it came from Greek. Definitely should be [g]s.
liglhoçhar (=to quip). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Punic or Hebrew. You tell me.
meçháirâ (=masked shrew). I have no clue about this one. It’s marked in the Treisoûr as from Greek.
parpaçhar (=to propagate). From Latin propagare.
praisaçhar (=to presage). From Latin praesagire (=to forbode).
taçherít (=schwa). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber.
tiçhêmt (=nose ring). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber.
tifináçh (=writing, script). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber. Again, though, why in the world would Talossan adapt a Berber word to replace scriptum, a BASIC piece of Rumán vocabulary?
So, of our vocabulary’s 19 uses of çh, we have:
Five from Latin, which should all be [g], including one that Ben apparently thought was originally from Berber.
Five apparently borrowed from Berber, and probably [G]. But of those five, three are inexplicabaly replacing basic Rumán words.
Three from Arabic, of which two should be [g] and only one [G].
Two from Hebrew, both of which should be [g].
Two (forms of the same word) from Pashto, maybe [G].
One (directly?) from Greek, and who can guess? If it’s ancient Greek it’ll be [g]; modern maybe [G].
One from Sardinian, probably [G].
That’s it. Nose ring, schwa, the masked shrew, a Sardinian word for nonsense, Afghanistan, and Baghdad. Not an important or common word in the whole bunch. They should be respelled abgad, agerar (or axherar), agasoûr, Afc'han, Afc'hanistan, azac'har, babaganusch, Bac'hdad, faicac'h, farac'hogñha, Hagar, isnagoga, lilioc'har, mec'haira, parpagar, praisagar, tac'herit, tic'hemt, and tifinac'h.
Sure, a Talossan who knows Pashto might pronounce Afghanistan with a [G] sound. (Just like an American who knows Spanish might say MAY-hee-co instead of MEX-i-co.) But anyone who’s just speaking normally will use the sounds of his own language. [G] is a foreign sound to Talossan just as certainly as it is to English. It’s not a phoneme, and there’s no way it could possibly have its own grapheme.
— John R
abçhad (=abjad). This is a loan word from Arabic, and the transliteration seems to be a mistake of Ben’s. The velar consonant there is gīm (usually [g]), not ghaim (usually [G]). We would do better to write abgad.
açharar (=to pile up). From Latin aggerare.
açhasoûr (=ostler). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber, and one would like to take Ben’s word for it. But Latin for ostler is agaso, so I don’t think so. If anything, Berber borrowed it from Talossan.
Afçhán (=Afghan) and Afçhánistán (=Afghanistan). These are loans from Pashto, of which I know next to nothing. Pashto does have [G], and I presume it’s the sound used here.
azaçhár (=plain, lowland). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber. It’s not clear to me why Talossan would borrow a Berber word to replace our own Rumán words like campus, planus, planities, aequor. (Unless maybe the Berbers borrowed aequor?)
baba-çhanúxh (=baba ghanouj). From Arabic, and again, the consonant is gīm, not ghaim.
Baçhdád (=Baghdad). Arabic again, and this time it IS ghaim.
faicáçh (=pagan priest). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber. What’s wrong with Rumán sacerdos, antistes, flamen? It’s not like Latin lacked words for priests.
faraçhogñhâ (=balderdash). Marked in the Treisoûr as from “Sardinian, Sicilian, Lucanian”, and maybe so. Sardinian does seem to have [G].
Haçhar (=Hagar). It’s a [g] in Hebrew, but for all I know it gets into Arabic as [G].
isnaçhoçhâ (=synagogue). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Rumán, whence it came from Greek. Definitely should be [g]s.
liglhoçhar (=to quip). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Punic or Hebrew. You tell me.
meçháirâ (=masked shrew). I have no clue about this one. It’s marked in the Treisoûr as from Greek.
parpaçhar (=to propagate). From Latin propagare.
praisaçhar (=to presage). From Latin praesagire (=to forbode).
taçherít (=schwa). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber.
tiçhêmt (=nose ring). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber.
tifináçh (=writing, script). Marked in the Treisoûr as from Berber. Again, though, why in the world would Talossan adapt a Berber word to replace scriptum, a BASIC piece of Rumán vocabulary?
So, of our vocabulary’s 19 uses of çh, we have:
Five from Latin, which should all be [g], including one that Ben apparently thought was originally from Berber.
Five apparently borrowed from Berber, and probably [G]. But of those five, three are inexplicabaly replacing basic Rumán words.
Three from Arabic, of which two should be [g] and only one [G].
Two from Hebrew, both of which should be [g].
Two (forms of the same word) from Pashto, maybe [G].
One (directly?) from Greek, and who can guess? If it’s ancient Greek it’ll be [g]; modern maybe [G].
One from Sardinian, probably [G].
That’s it. Nose ring, schwa, the masked shrew, a Sardinian word for nonsense, Afghanistan, and Baghdad. Not an important or common word in the whole bunch. They should be respelled abgad, agerar (or axherar), agasoûr, Afc'han, Afc'hanistan, azac'har, babaganusch, Bac'hdad, faicac'h, farac'hogñha, Hagar, isnagoga, lilioc'har, mec'haira, parpagar, praisagar, tac'herit, tic'hemt, and tifinac'h.
Sure, a Talossan who knows Pashto might pronounce Afghanistan with a [G] sound. (Just like an American who knows Spanish might say MAY-hee-co instead of MEX-i-co.) But anyone who’s just speaking normally will use the sounds of his own language. [G] is a foreign sound to Talossan just as certainly as it is to English. It’s not a phoneme, and there’s no way it could possibly have its own grapheme.
— John R
