Proposal on Foreign Imports

[Hooligan]

Some words in our treisoûr bother me, and I know I am not the only one. These are words that have been imported wholesale from other languages, and which are obviously non-Talossan, and for which pronunciation for a true Talossan would be neither evident nor explained anywhere.

To give two examples: we have "w.c." as one way to say "toilet", and "weekend" as the word for, well, weekend.

First, as for "w.c.", yes, it's actually "w.c.". Not "water closet", but "w.c." There is no pronunciation help, but it seems that the intent is that these two letters are to be pronounced as in English. This is doubly difficult for a Talossan since the letter W is not even a Talossan letter, so how to pronounce it when seen would be an issue in and of itself. A Talossan coming across "w.c." for the first time would certainly not know to pronounce it "double-yoo-see".

"Weekend" bothers me for a similar reason. A Talossan coming to this word would naturally believe it to be pronounced "way-ache-aind".

Accordingly, I propose that in the upcoming Arestadâ we adopt a rule for words imported into Talossan that either the word be pronounced in Talossan (so that if "weekend" were left spelled that way, then it would indeed be pronounced "way-ache-aind") or re-spelled in Talossan so that it is pronounced as in the foreign language (which, to my mind, is preferable in most cases).

For the two words I brought up as examples, I propose that they be respelled dúbeliusí and uichend.

Hooligan

[King John]

The general practice in Talossan has always been to pronounce imported words fairly closely to the way they're pronounced in their original languages. The Treisoûr, for instance, specifies that Talossan bidet (= bidet) is pronounced "[biDe]", and Talossan houpette (= powder puff) as "[upêt]". Other imports, when their pronunciation is known, tend to follow the same pattern.

Note also the instruction in the Introduction to the Treisoûr, that the letters w and y, used mainly in imported words, are pronounced "as in the language of origin".

The student of Talossan shouldn't have to know French and English and Russian, just in order to pronounce the Talossan words he's learning. If we are ever going to achieve what I take to be the *highly* desirable goal of making Talossan pronunciation determinable from Talossan spelling, these imported words, pronounced as in a foreign language, have to be *spelled* in a Talossan way.

Do we think that Talossan speakers say Yay-ahns and Yaws and Yay-epp for Jeans and Jazz and Jeep? No. We pronounce these imports as they're pronounced in English; and we should spell them, therefore, Xhins and Xhäz and Xhip.

I concur whole-heartedly with Lord Hooligan's proposal.

— John R

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

Not surprisingly, I disagree. It seems to me that languages with small phonological inventories (like Hawaiian - "mele kalikimaka") or that normally use a non-Latin writing system (like Japanese - "besu-baru") tend to be more aggressive in reforming loanwords to conform to purely native phonology and orthography. A phonologically-rich, loan-friendly language like Talossan should be able to handle a significant number of unreformed loan words, especially from a language with which its speakers have a great deal of regular contact (English).

The French don't have any trouble with WC - they just pronounce it vay-say. The French don't have any trouble with "le week-end." Why should Talossans? I doubt anyone has ever seriously attempted to get people to spell it "le ouiquend" or something like that, just to comply with the orthography rules that generally govern native French words. And I'm sure the French manage to use "le serial-killer" without trying to make it rhyme with "viller" (vee-yay).

The better way to deal with awkward foreign borrowings, I think, is to encourage use of a native alternative instead. French nativists don't propose respelling "le week-end" or "le serial-killer." They urge Francophones to use "le fin de semaine" or "le tueur en série" instead.

In sum, the general practice in Talossan works a lot like the general practice in French, and there's no reason a real language can't act like that. Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese, and Catalan all have "Jeep." Esperanto changes it to Ĵipo - and Esperanto is not a natural language.

[King John]

Spanish does exactly this, respelling imported words in order to maintain the lovely quality — an utterly foreign concept to readers of English and French — that you can always tell exactly how to pronounce a Spanish word by its spelling. So we have béisbol, fútbol, bloc, champú, rosbif (my favourite), tráiler (= movie trailer), clic (and cliquear = to click, which you do with a maus!), disquete, escáner ... and so on.

Only very recently, and then usually only with proper names or trademarks like Jeep (and a few "high-tech" words), has Spanish begun to allow both the spelling and pronunciation of imported words to remain "as in the original language".

— John R

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

john said:

Spanish does exactly this, respelling imported words in order to maintain the lovely quality — an utterly foreign concept to readers of English and French — that you can always tell exactly how to pronounce a Spanish word by its spelling

The concept appears to be utterly foreign to readers of Talossan as well. Isn't this another sign that we really are talking about changing the spirit of the language? This is one of the ways in which Talossan historically feels more like French, and a proposal has been made to make it feel more like Spanish or Italian instead.

[King John]

Oh contrayer! Respelling is the USUAL Talossan way to treat borrowed words. For instance, and I could find lots more if I took more time:

Uéixhër (wager), apál (apple), cêleri (celery), softuéir (software), ívënðo (even though), valún (balloon), attáq (attack), xhacarandâ (jacaranda), xhuri (jury), piutër (pewter), axhután (adjutant), marxhën (margin), biliös (bilious), axhënt (agent), sändwitsch (sandwich), sürvéi (survey), bumoûr (baby boomer), fidbäc (feedback), tuistar (twist), ladár (ladder), coraxhös (courageous), cip (cheap), þering (herring), uit (wit), clå (claw), cactéill (cocktail), þrilléir (thriller), fül (fuel), sarviêt (serviette), sôntains (sometimes), lipstic (lipstick), schoc (shock), útreac’h (outreach), qiqar (kick), maqarál (mackerel), hört (hurt), hanðál (handle), xhërm (germ), ärör (error), croschéi (crochet), fläsch (news flash), and copling (coupling).

All Lord Hooligan proposes is that the FEW words that DON'T do the normal Talossan borrowing thing (respelling as Talossan words) should be respelled. Talossan should be Talossan, not English or French.

— John R

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

john said:

Oh contrayer! Respelling is the USUAL Talossan way to treat borrowed words.

True, I doubt any language preserves every borrowed word intact. English has borrowed a lot of words from French, most of them (generally older borrowings) have changed, and some of them haven't. French has borrowed a lot of words from English, some have changed (for example, rosbif, like in Spanish, except in French it's also something to call an Englishman), and some haven't.

Talossan has borrowed a lot of words from English and French, and most have been changed and some haven't. That is Talossan. Y'all are saying that Talossan ought to be different than it is, and that the way it ought to be is less like French and more like Spanish or Italian.

[Xhorxh Asmour]

siervicul said:

The better way to deal with awkward foreign borrowings, I think, is to encourage use of a native alternative instead.

Native alternatives would preserve the genuine Talossan spirit