The Veto Override Reform Amendment

[Lüc da Schir]

Ok, writing it down before I forget. This will amend the new OrgLaw, so it will be introduced in the Second Clark (February) at the earliest, provided the referendum passes and the Ziu passes a bill to make it effective immediately (end of January's Clark) instead of on the anniversary of the amendment's final passage (July).

For posterity, this stems from a Shoutbox discussion where the current veto override process was found to be:

• confusing, as the same bill needs to be Clarked twice, with the only difference being the numbering;
• prone to being gamed, as there's no actual requirement that the second bill be exactly the same as the first;
• redundant, as for example there's an implicit line item veto provision, "the part of the bill objected to", that is in stark contrast with the rest of the language and is presently unenforceable;
• I'll add to that ignored, as the Ziu apparently "SHALL reconsider" (not "MAY reconsider") a vetoed bill, which hasn't been the case at all;
• And also incomplete, since it doesn't say when "unsigned" bills come into effect, which should frankly be a bigger deal! The Still Into This Amendment is slated to come into effect effect one year after the passage of the Amendment, but when is that, since it hasn't been signed? One year after the Clark results? One year after the last day of the month? The Ziu will probably set an earlier date, as it is empowered to do, but if it didn't, we might not know which constitution applied for a whole week! If I may end on a tangentially related point, this is why one of the first Senate rules was a clear definition of when a term begins and ends. You don't want ambiguity on dates.

---

WHEREAS blah blah,

THEREFORE Organic Law Article VII Section 11, which reads: [Note: it's Article X.6 in the current OrgLaw, but it reads verbatim]

Section 11
Every bill which passes the Ziu shall be presented to the King before it comes into effect. The King may sign such a Bill, in which case it shall immediately enter into effect and become law; or he may veto the Bill, in which case it shall be returned, with his objections, to the Ziu, which shall reconsider it in the next Clark. If, after such reconsideration, two-thirds of the Cosa agree to pass the bill, or the part of the bill objected to, with the approval of the Senäts, it shall become a law over the objection of the King. If a bill vetoed by the King in a certain term of the Cosa is passed by a simple majority of the Cosa and the Senäts in the subsequent term of the Cosa, the bill shall become law over the King’s objections, and cannot be vetoed. If the King neither signs nor vetoes a Bill before the last day of the month in which it was passed by the Ziu, he shall be deemed to have signed it.

is amended to read:

Section 11
Every bill which passes the Ziu shall be presented to the King before it comes into effect. The King may sign such a Bill_{, in which case it shall immediately enter into effect and become law}; or he may veto the Bill, in which case it shall be returned to the Ziu, with his objections. The Ziu may then consider a veto override bill, which is not subject to veto, whose exact form shall be fixed by statute, and on which any statutory provision regarding the duration of its stay in the Hopper shall be waived. If such a veto override bill is passed by two-thirds of the Cosa and a simple majority of the Senäts in the same term of the Cosa, or by a simple majority of the Cosa and the Senäts in the subsequent term of the Cosa, the original bill shall become law over the King’s objections.
If the King neither signs nor vetoes a Bill before the last day of the month in which it was passed by the Ziu, he shall be deemed to have signed it.

And a new Section 15 is appended to Article VII, to read:

Section 15
All bills that have been signed by the King shall take effect immediately upon being signed, or on any later date specified in the bill.
All bills that passed but were neither signed nor vetoed before the last day of the month in which they were passed, as described in Section 11, shall take effect on the first day of the first month after they were passed, or on any later date specified in the bill.
If a bill was vetoed, should a veto override bill for that same bill be subsequently passed, the original bill shall take effect immediately after final results for the Clark when the veto has been overridden have been published, or on a later date specified in the veto override bill. Any dates for the coming into force specified in the original bill are null and void.
Amendments to the Organic Law shall become effective immediately after the referendum's results have been certified by the Chancery, or on any later date specified in the bill.

FURTHERMORE, a new article H.22 shall be appended to Section H (Legislation) of El Lexhatx, to read:

22. Veto override bills, as prescribed by the Organic Law, shall be in the following form. The Secretary of State is empowered to refuse to Clark any veto override bill that does not conform to these requirements.
22.1 The bill shall have a title in the following form: "Veto override bill for [original bill number], [original bill title]".
22.2 The bill shall state the reason(s) the proponents seek to override the veto.
22.3 The bill shall have a THEREFORE section in the following form: "THEREFORE WE, [the Ziu of the Kingdom of Talossa, or similar], having considered the veto issued by His Majesty the King on [bill number], [bill title] on [date], HEREBY INSIST on our decision to pass the aforementioned bill and by this bill OVERRIDE the aforementioned veto."
22.4 The bill may specify a date for the coming into force of the original bill.
22.5 The bill shall make no additional provisions other than those mentioned in this article.

Ureu q'estadra sa,

the Lüc

[Amada Merþedes]

Did Ijust read „whereas blah blah?“

[Lüc da Schir]

I thought the "Ureu q'estadra sa" would be the funniest part. My sense of humour is not very good.

[Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN]

Oct 28, 2019 6:41:30 GMT -6 Lüc da Schir said:

...

• confusing, as the same bill needs to be Clarked twice, with the only difference being the numbering;

If the SoS puts a note in the Clark that the bill is being returned for reconsideration by the Ziu, along with the King's comments on the veto, I don't see how this is confusing?

Also, on a side point, does the bill's Clark numbering need to be changed if it is the exact same bill? I couldn't find anything mandating this in the OrgLaw/El Lexhatx (then again, I did skim through quickly so may of missed something), so it strikes me that nothing prevents the SoS from using the same numbering or possibly, adding a "V" for Veto Override at the end. However, I am aware that there may be database issues etc... here, so different numbers don't strike me as a huge issue. 

Oct 28, 2019 6:41:30 GMT -6 @lucabadin said:

prone to being gamed, as there's no actual requirement that the second bill be exactly the same as the first;

From my reading of the OrgLaw this point is debatable.

Oct 28, 2019 6:41:30 GMT -6 @lucabadin said:

redundant, as for example there's an implicit line item veto provision, "the part of the bill objected to", that is in stark contrast with the rest of the language and is presently unenforceable;

This is probably an overhang from 16RZ18 - The Veto Language Clarification Amendment, which allowed the King to part approve and part object/veto a bill which got translated into the OrgLaw and amended at some point in time. 

Oct 28, 2019 6:41:30 GMT -6 @lucabadin said:

I'll add to that ignored, as the Ziu apparently "SHALL reconsider" (not "MAY reconsider") a vetoed bill, which hasn't been the case at all;

Agreed.

Oct 28, 2019 6:41:30 GMT -6 @lucabadin said:

And also incomplete, since it doesn't say when "unsigned" bills come into effect, which should frankly be a bigger deal! The Still Into This Amendment is slated to come into effect effect one year after the passage of the Amendment, but when is that, since it hasn't been signed? One year after the Clark results? One year after the last day of the month? The Ziu will probably set an earlier date, as it is empowered to do, but if it didn't, we might not know which constitution applied for a whole week! If I may end on a tangentially related point, this is why one of the first Senate rules was a clear definition of when a term begins and ends. You don't want ambiguity on dates.

A Bill is typically brought into force in one of 3 ways:

1) By means of an explicit commencement date (and sometimes time of day) written into the Bill itself,
2) As a result of a commencement order or,
3) Automatically, in that, a Bill that does not include either an explicit commencement dates or provision for commencement orders will usually be considered as having come into effect at a certain time relative to its enactment.

In Talossa's case, a Bill enters automatically and immediately into force when
a) it is signed (or promulgated, if it is an amendment) by the King or
b) on the last day on the month in which it was passed by the Ziu, if the King neither signs nor vetos the Bill or
c) when passed by the required majorities in Cosa & Senäts after a veto (e.g. when the Clark results are published/made public) or
d) where there is a vague commencement date (e.g. one week/7 days/one month/one year etc..) the countdown begins the day after the day on which the Bill received Royal Assent/Promulgation/Clark Results Published. 

Therefore, with the above there is no ambiguity as to when signed or unsigned bills take effect. 

As regards The Still Into This Amendment, Article XV, Section 4 of the OrgLaw covers this in that "...The amendment shall take effect, and the King shall promulgate the amendment as part of this Organic Law, if it is approved by a majority of voters participating in a referendum on the question of the amendment no later than during the next scheduled general election following the approval of the Ziu, except as provided in the following sections."
Thus the '365 days' countdown will begin (provided it gets the 2/3rds majority) the day after the day on which King promulgates the amendment.


Also, I am a fan of commencement orders rather than days/dates, the former is a lot less messy (Title J in El Lex springs to mind) and removes a lot of guesswork. They're something we don't make a lot of use of in Talossa.

Oct 28, 2019 6:41:30 GMT -6 @lucabadin said:

Section 11
Every bill which passes the Ziu shall be presented to the King before it comes into effect. The King may sign such a Bill_{, in which case it shall immediately enter into effect and become law}; or he may veto the Bill, in which case it shall be returned to the Ziu, with his objections. The Ziu may then consider a veto override bill, which is not subject to veto, whose exact form shall be fixed by statute, and on which any statutory provision regarding the duration of its stay in the Hopper shall be waived. If such a veto override bill is passed by two-thirds of the Cosa and a simple majority of the Senäts in the same term of the Cosa, or by a simple majority of the Cosa and the Senäts in the subsequent term of the Cosa, the original bill shall become law over the King’s objections.
If the King neither signs nor vetoes a Bill before the last day of the month in which it was passed by the Ziu, he shall be deemed to have signed it.

And a new Section 15 is appended to Article VII, to read:

Section 15
All bills that have been signed by the King shall take effect immediately upon being signed, or on any later date specified in the bill.
All bills that passed but were neither signed nor vetoed before the last day of the month in which they were passed, as described in Section 11, shall take effect on the first day of the first month after they were passed, or on any later date specified in the bill.
If a bill was vetoed, should a veto override bill for that same bill be subsequently passed, the original bill shall take effect immediately after final results for the Clark when the veto has been overridden have been published, or on a later date specified in the veto override bill. Any dates for the coming into force specified in the original bill are null and void.
Amendments to the Organic Law shall become effective immediately after the referendum's results have been certified by the Chancery, or on any later date specified in the bill.

FURTHERMORE, a new article H.22 shall be appended to Section H (Legislation) of El Lexhatx, to read:

22. Veto override bills, as prescribed by the Organic Law, shall be in the following form. The Secretary of State is empowered to refuse to Clark any veto override bill that does not conform to these requirements.
22.1 The bill shall have a title in the following form: "Veto override bill for [original bill number], [original bill title]".
22.2 The bill shall state the reason(s) the proponents seek to override the veto.
22.3 The bill shall have a THEREFORE section in the following form: "THEREFORE WE, [the Ziu of the Kingdom of Talossa, or similar], having considered the veto issued by His Majesty the King on [bill number], [bill title] on [date], HEREBY INSIST on our decision to pass the aforementioned bill and by this bill OVERRIDE the aforementioned veto."
22.4 The bill may specify a date for the coming into force of the original bill.
22.5 The bill shall make no additional provisions other than those mentioned in this article.

For the reasons stated above, the proposed Section 15 is not needed and only serves the clog up the OrgLaw. If however, there is a desire to add these definitions somewhere into the law, I would recommend an Interpretation Bill to create a section in El Lex to provide definitions of certain words and phrases.

Also if you wish to go ahead with Section 15:

"If a bill was vetoed, should a veto override bill for that same bill be subsequently passed, the original bill shall take effect immediately after final results for the Clark when the veto has been overridden have been published, or on a later date specified in the veto override bill. Any dates for the coming into force specified in the original bill are null and void."

My brain hurts slightly reading this, is there a better way you can word this?

"Amendments to the Organic Law shall become effective immediately after the referendum's results have been certified by the Chancery, or on any later date specified in the bill."

This would conflict with the aforementioned, Article XV, Section 4 of the OrgLaw or Article XII Section 3 of the Still Into This Amendment. The goal is to make the OrgLaw simpler not more complex!  

I would also re-write Section 11 as below, and scrap the proposed H.22:

Section 11
Every bill which passes the Ziu shall be presented to the King before it comes into effect. The King may sign such a Bill, in which case it shall immediately enter into effect and become law; or he may veto the Bill, clearly stating his reason(s) for doing so, in which case it shall be returned to "The Hopper". with his objections, to the Ziu, which shall reconsider it in the next Clark. The original proposer(s) of a bill vetoed by the King, may at any time, provided such bill has not be amended, changed or altered in any way, instruct the Secretary of State to withdraw said bill from “The Hopper” and to treat it as a properly submitted bill for reconsideration by the Ziu in the subsequent Clark. If, after such reconsideration, two-thirds of the Cosa agree to pass the bill, or the part of the bill objected to, with the approval of the Senäts, it shall become a law over the objection of the King. If a bill vetoed by the King in a certain term of the Cosa is passed by a simple majority of the Cosa and the Senäts in the subsequent term of the Cosa, the bill shall become law over the King’s objections, and cannot be vetoed. If the King neither signs nor vetoes a Bill before the last day of the month in which it was passed by the Ziu, he shall be deemed to have signed it.


My two bence, 

-- Litz

[Lüc da Schir]

Thank you for your very thorough comments and I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I hope I'll manage to address them soon-ish (FWIW, I don't plan on Clarking this anytime soon, so there's ample time for working on this still)