Terpelaziun to the Minister of STUFF

[Lüc da Schir]

Fellow Senators,

TalossaWiki recently passed 1000 articles, and as (I think) its most prolific writer, I'm pleased to see more people contributing in recent times. Talossans need to realise the enormous bounty of information the Wiki represents: a very convenient, crowdsourced way of storing facts and recording history for posterity to read.

However, the Wiki has long been operated in a very hand-off manner by successive Governments, although this isn't a bad thing, per se; self-regulating projects have been successful at times. But the Wiki does have some issues that could be resolved by some leadership able to provide guidance:

• The status of Talossan language pages;
  
• The moderation of talk pages, and generally of all edits;
  
• Rules over the scope personal pages, User pages and ArTal pages;

and so on.

I must however note that Ministerial leadership would stride with what has effectively been a community effort since its very estabilishment 7 years ago. What I envisioned for a very long time, but never shared before, would be to put in charge of the website a roundtable of N active users, chaired and led by the Minister of Stuff, that would collectively be responsible for moderation and promotion of the Wiki, while leaving the technical aspect and ownership still in the hands of the Government.

Would Minister Sevastáin Pinátsch share with me his opinion on the matter, and his vision for TalossaWiki's future?

[Eðo Grischun]

Point of Order, Mr Speaker?

[Lüc da Schir]

Err... a point of order by a MC, in a terp from a Senator to another Senator, directed to the Speaker of the Cosa, it seems? I guess I'll handle it myself, since surely the Tuischac'h has no business intervening in the Senate.

The Leader of the Opposition has the floor.

[Sevastáin Pinátsch]

I think the dangers of assigning primary responsibility for the maintenance and oversight of the wiki to some designated group of 'N' active users, is that the availability of these users is subject to change at any time, and that the creation of such a group implies that community support is not needed. I wouldn't want to have to actively recruit for new users on an ongoing basis, nor would I want ordinary Talossans to feel like their participation is not required nor valued.

Furthermore, I'm personally not in favour for any more rules for the wiki. One of the reasons I've never been the least bit interested in editing Wikipedia (while making thousands of edits to others) is the pedantic toe-trampling by it's oligarchy of Uber Nerds.

What we have with TalossaWiki may be imperfect, but it's better than that. Organic -- contributed to and maintained by people who see its value and have the time to use it. Ministry aside, I'm one of those people. Sometimes I use it a lot; sometimes it's not the tool I need (for reference, or for development). I don't think we should mandate its use, but promoting it is fine.

I'm okay with STUFF being designated as the ministry responsible for maintenance, but to start that process I'll begin with the basics. The first thing I'd like to do, once the roots are replanted on the new host, is to try to get the software up to date without breaking it. I don't know what the compatibility is with the latest version and the extensions we've installed.

[Viteu Marcianüs]

Jul 28, 2019 10:40:20 GMT -6 Lüc da Schir said:

Err... a point of order by a MC, in a terp from a Senator to another Senator, directed to the Speaker of the Cosa, it seems? I guess I'll handle it myself, since surely the Tuischac'h has no business intervening in the Senate.

The Leader of the Opposition has the floor.

Points of clarification - the TERP was made in the Ziu board and not in the Senate forum.  Further, while the TERP is appropriately made at the Minister of Stuff, it is wholly irrelevant that the Minister happens to be a Senator.  I believe I tried something analogous (TERPing a Senator by virtue of being a Senator) against Glüc or Lüc some time ago because their party was in Government, and was shot down because they were not a member of the Cabinet (I could be misremembering so correct me if I'm wrong).  

Following that logic, however, you terp'ed a cabinet member who happens to be a Senator, not a Senator, in the Ziu forum. Hence, I think, procedurally speaking, Etho is on solid ground to make a point of order. I do not comment on the substance or merits of the point of order, just that I think it is procedurally proper. 

But there has been a response by the Minister of Stuff, so I would say that Etho's point of order and my commentary as to its propriety (above) are moot. 

[Sevastáin Pinátsch]

Jul 28, 2019 12:05:06 GMT -6 Viteu Marcianüs said:

But there has been a response by the Minister of Stuff, so I would say that Etho's point of order and my commentary as to its propriety (above) are moot. 

I appreciate that you parsed this anyway, for future reference.

[Lüc da Schir]

Jul 28, 2019 12:05:06 GMT -6 Viteu Marcianüs said:

Jul 28, 2019 10:40:20 GMT -6 Lüc da Schir said:

Err... a point of order by a MC, in a terp from a Senator to another Senator, directed to the Speaker of the Cosa, it seems? I guess I'll handle it myself, since surely the Tuischac'h has no business intervening in the Senate.

The Leader of the Opposition has the floor.

Points of clarification - the TERP was made in the Ziu board and not in the Senate forum.  Further, while the TERP is appropriately made at the Minister of Stuff, it is wholly irrelevant that the Minister happens to be a Senator.  I believe I tried something analogous (TERPing a Senator by virtue of being a Senator) against Glüc or Lüc some time ago because their party was in Government, and was shot down because they were not a member of the Cabinet (I could be misremembering so correct me if I'm wrong).  

Following that logic, however, you terp'ed a cabinet member who happens to be a Senator, not a Senator, in the Ziu forum. Hence, I think, procedurally speaking, Etho is on solid ground to make a point of order. I do not comment on the substance or merits of the point of order, just that I think it is procedurally proper. 

But there has been a response by the Minister of Stuff, so I would say that Etho's point of order, and my preceding commentary (above) are moot. 

I thank the Senator for his comment. I did not mean to suggest that a point of order was not in order; I was merely confused at who had standing to accept the point of order, me or my colleague in the other place.

S:r Grischun can still make his point if he wishes.

[Viteu Marcianüs]

Fair enough. Perhaps where, as here, the terp is made in the Ziu and not the Senate, and made by the Lord President, the Tuischac'h should address the point of order.

In any event, please let's not make this into something it's not--a call for TERP reform or something.

[Lüc da Schir]

Back on point, I thank the Minister for his response. I do not wish to ask a followup question.

[Eðo Grischun]

Indeed, the point of order I was going to seek clarification on was whether or not a Senator can address a Terp to "Fellow Senators" only. I am entirely certain that my honorable friend from Benito is not intentionally being contemptuous of the Cosa, however he makes use of the phrase "Fellow Senators" in his original statement and then goes on to use the phrase "Tuischac'h has no business intervening in the Senate". I am under the impression that terpelaziuns do not take place, solely, in either this place, the Cosa chamber, or that other place, the Senate chamber, but take place as a function of the Ziu assembled, in toto.

On the other point raised regarding which Speaker I was calling to; I was calling on the Tuischac'h as I believed that that office held the remit to oversee all terpelaziuns. I am, now, completely uncertain which speaker is supposed to chair terpelaziuns. El Lexhatx H.2 doesn't really make it clear.


ACTING (for a short time only, please, God, please) Leader of the Opposition

[Lüc da Schir]

I thank S:r Grischun for his point of order. I can assure him I meant no disrespect towards the Cosa. My interpretation has always been that:

1) MCs direct their Terpelaziuns to the Tuischac'h;

2) Senators direct their Terpelaziuns to the Mençei (exception to point 4; Senators should still address the whole house in debate);

3) The Tuischac'h (probably?) directs his/her Terpelaziuns to the Minister directly;

4) The Mençei directs his/her Terpelaziuns to the whole Senate (as members
of upper houses including our Senate usually address their speeches to
the whole house, not to the Speaker - I did it here).

I didn't consider that Terpelaziuns were made in joint session - that would certainly be a valid interpretation - but even if they were, joint sessions are not mentioned in Lexhatx or in the OrgLaw (except for budgets, but that is rightfully hopefully getting nuked soon), and such, there's no provision that the Tuischac'h should chair them, and Terps should be addressed to him. Infuriatingly, a ton of Terpelaziuns were just addressed to the Minister directly, in recent years, which makes way too much sense for our magniloquent Ziu.

An easy fix that wouldn't involve joint sessions would be to amend the above as follows:

1) MCs direct their Terpelaziuns to the Tuischac'h;
2) Senators direct their Terpelaziuns to the Mençei;
3) Presiding officers direct his/her Terpelaziuns to the Minister directly.