Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jul 27, 2019 8:24:29 GMT -6
I also feel that all the ad hominem attacks / accusations of bad faith / attempts to shoot the messenger are a completely uninteresting and rather inappropriate response. I'd be much much more interesting in the reasoning of the government with regards to the referendum. If indeed the Florencian constitution requires the governor to sign the resolution and provide an opportunity for the Cunstaval to veto, and if indeed this did not happen, can we say that Florencia approved of the resolution? And if not can we still hold the referendum? Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Jul 27, 2019 8:25:25 GMT -6
Okay, shall I withdraw as counsel? If you don't clarify by 5:00 p.m. EDT, I shall assume you wish to defend the Chancery yourself.
Anyway, feel better, Glüc? Again, Virulent V is more than happy to be used as a punching bag to take cheap shots at the King, but not by some apologist. So you got your one shot. I don't have much time to suffer a tyrant's lacky/apologist.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jul 27, 2019 8:51:59 GMT -6
Lastly, with regards to the timing. Yes, if this would have been pointed out earlier it would have been better.
That said, a lot of major reforms and projects have been happening, often in a rather rushed fashion. Time people have to voluntarily spend on Talossa. It is understandable that some people have trouble keeping up. Perhaps the most active citizens are also those most enthusiastic and least likely to post critical notes. It is very important then that along the way people remain critical and allow themselves to think about what is happening. So, it is deeply frustrating that every time a plan is criticized late in a process the response seems to be to attack the person raising the point for being late rather than to consider the merit.
If there is nothing to His Majesty's objections then there is no problem. If however, they are valid, then yes it would have been good if it had been raised earlier but then we should all ask ourselves (that goes for me as well) why we didn't raise this point ourselves. If something is wrong then His Majesty is not the only one who didn't point this out in time, but both provincial governments, legislatures, the Ziu, the government and the chancery should also ask themselves why they missed it.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jul 27, 2019 8:58:02 GMT -6
Okay, shall I withdraw as counsel? If you don't clarify by 5:00 p.m. EDT, I shall assume you wish to defend the Chancery yourself. Not sure the chancery needs to be defended at all. The interest of the chancery is partly to satisfy the wishes of the Ziu and the government, but above all to follow the law, whatever it may be. If the government believes the referendum needs to be held then I am sure the AG will vigorously defend that position from the position of defending the government. Meanwhile, I'd be more than happy to explain the position the chancery is in to the CpI myself.
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Jul 27, 2019 9:03:39 GMT -6
Perhaps.
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2019 11:03:55 GMT -6
Estimat Senator Plätschisch —
It's difficult to defend myself against charges of "doing nothing", when quite a few of the things I've done are in private emails. If I'm corresponding with someone by email or message, I very seldom reveal that fact, and I never reveal the other guy's messages to me without his permission. (Which is to say, you can write to me and be assured your email won't end up being broadcast to the world.) The one exception I can think of is when Ups Martüc sent me thousands of identical abusive emails; I thought that warranted public comment.
Sometimes I simply hope some measure won't pass, because I can't see some easy way to fix it, given the politics of the situation. Other times, everyone knows I'll be opposed, so a veto is hardly an "ambush". Other times, yes, I'm hoping by the timing of what I do to frustrate what I consider measures that are bad for the country. But I'm always interested in making Talossa better, and improving the laws.
Voastra,
— John R
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Jul 27, 2019 11:08:17 GMT -6
Are people claiming to be unaware that Florencian bills, once they're approved, have to be submitted to the Constable? The Florencian Constitution literally could not be clearer on this point:Is the Governor claiming not to have been aware of this?
— John R
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Jul 27, 2019 13:25:47 GMT -6
Lastly, with regards to the timing. Yes, if this would have been pointed out earlier it would have been better. That said, a lot of major reforms and projects have been happening, often in a rather rushed fashion. Time people have to voluntarily spend on Talossa. It is understandable that some people have trouble keeping up. Perhaps the most active citizens are also those most enthusiastic and least likely to post critical notes. It is very important then that along the way people remain critical and allow themselves to think about what is happening. So, it is deeply frustrating that every time a plan is criticized late in a process the response seems to be to attack the person raising the point for being late rather than to consider the merit. If there is nothing to His Majesty's objections then there is no problem. If however, they are valid, then yes it would have been good if it had been raised earlier but then we should all ask ourselves (that goes for me as well) why we didn't raise this point ourselves. If something is wrong then His Majesty is not the only one who didn't point this out in time, but both provincial governments, legislatures, the Ziu, the government and the chancery should also ask themselves why they missed it. It's true that we all need to be more vigilant about things like this. I also agree that, in this particular instance, the issue needs to be sorted out now because the merger is essentially irreversible. However, there have previously been occasions when a point is raised very late in a process and fully considering it would cause a considerable delay. Therefore, when an action is not final, I'd say its better to move forward and acknowledge the mistakes that need to be fixed, rather than halt the process every time. There will always be someone who, for whatever reason, will not check Wittenberg until just before a major reform. Their thoughts are still important, but if we stop every time it will be difficult to get much done.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Jul 27, 2019 13:31:00 GMT -6
Estimat Senator Plätschisch — It's difficult to defend myself against charges of "doing nothing", when quite a few of the things I've done are in private emails. If I'm corresponding with someone by email or message, I very seldom reveal that fact, and I never reveal the other guy's messages to me without his permission. (Which is to say, you can write to me and be assured your email won't end up being broadcast to the world.) I'm happy to hear this, although I think the cultural aspects of Talossa would be much improved if you also were active in public. I appreciate your honesty but that kind of maneuver still leaves a bitter taste. There are times when this appears to be the case, and other times when it does not.
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Post by Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h on Jul 27, 2019 13:56:13 GMT -6
Estimat Senator Plätschisch — It's difficult to defend myself against charges of "doing nothing", when quite a few of the things I've done are in private emails. If I'm corresponding with someone by email or message, I very seldom reveal that fact, and I never reveal the other guy's messages to me without his permission. (Which is to say, you can write to me and be assured your email won't end up being broadcast to the world.) The one exception I can think of is when Ups Martüc sent me thousands of identical abusive emails; I thought that warranted public comment. Sometimes I simply hope some measure won't pass, because I can't see some easy way to fix it, given the politics of the situation. Other times, everyone knows I'll be opposed, so a veto is hardly an "ambush". Other times, yes, I'm hoping by the timing of what I do to frustrate what I consider measures that are bad for the country. But I'm always interested in making Talossa better, and improving the laws. Voastra, — John R Wow. You *are* a 'political' monarch, then. Your candor is appreciated, and it informs the country without a veto-override majority, the Monarch is more powerful than the rest of the Ziu combined. And what sort of precedent does this set for a future rogue monarch who, unlike the present one, is actually out to do Talossa harm? Your discretion with private matters is appreciated. So is the lack of the ambush-veto.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Jul 27, 2019 14:02:32 GMT -6
Estimat Senator Plätschisch — It's difficult to defend myself against charges of "doing nothing", when quite a few of the things I've done are in private emails. If I'm corresponding with someone by email or message, I very seldom reveal that fact, and I never reveal the other guy's messages to me without his permission. (Which is to say, you can write to me and be assured your email won't end up being broadcast to the world.) The one exception I can think of is when Ups Martüc sent me thousands of identical abusive emails; I thought that warranted public comment. Sometimes I simply hope some measure won't pass, because I can't see some easy way to fix it, given the politics of the situation. Other times, everyone knows I'll be opposed, so a veto is hardly an "ambush". Other times, yes, I'm hoping by the timing of what I do to frustrate what I consider measures that are bad for the country. But I'm always interested in making Talossa better, and improving the laws. Voastra, — John R Wow. You *are* a 'political' monarch, then. Your candor is appreciated, and it informs the country without a veto-override majority, the Monarch is more powerful than the rest of the Ziu combined. Is this good for Talossa? Lucky for us that, once a bill is passed by the Ziu once, all you have to do to override a veto is wait and pass it again in the next term with a regular majority (or regular supermajority in case of amendment). I remember a piece that Sir Cresti wrote for BT back during the Proclamation Crisis in which he discussed historical examples of royal vetoes. He pointed out that, when the French were drafting their pre-Revolution Constitution, they opted to give the King an absolute veto rather than one that could be overcome with three successive votes. This was done in the hope that giving the King such power would incentive him not to use it very much. The King currently has a fairly weak veto, and after the Royal veto was weakened a few terms ago it seems (though I have not counted) that he has used it more often. However, I still think this is preferable to the possibility of a King wielding a more powerful veto with no check.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 27, 2019 14:04:29 GMT -6
Are people claiming to be unaware that Florencian bills, once they're approved, have to be submitted to the Constable? No-one was "unaware" that in the Organic Law as it existed before 2016, Organic Law amendments had to be "proclaimed" by the King to be effected. None of them ever were, and yet they were all effective. Then you decided to "ostentatiously not proclaim" 47RZ22, causing a constitutional crisis. At that point, you made an argument to the effect that because you didn't "ostentatiously not proclaim" the previous amendments, you should be deemed to have proclaimed them. Similarly, the Governor of Florencia could be argued to have "deemed" to pass the merger bill to the Constable by means of his (belated) për vote. Could we not? === What we are seeing here is not "John the stickler for the rules". We are seeing "John who is a stickler for the rules when he likes the outcomes, and John who skates around the rules when he likes the outcome". Do not mistake this for a principled position. Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h is right - this is a political monarch.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 27, 2019 14:08:10 GMT -6
If indeed the Florencian constitution requires the governor to sign the resolution and provide an opportunity for the Cunstaval to veto, and if indeed this did not happen, can we say that Florencia approved of the resolution? And if not can we still hold the referendum? Miestrâ Schivâ, UrNThe Government requests that the referendum be held on schedule - unless the Cort pü Înalt orders otherwise.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Jul 27, 2019 14:09:10 GMT -6
Are people claiming to be unaware that Florencian bills, once they're approved, have to be submitted to the Constable? Similarly, the Governor of Florencia could be argued to have "deemed" to pass the merger bill to the Constable by means of his (belated) për vote. Could we not? If I may be allowed to play devil's advocate for a moment, I can understand how the Governor voting in favor of a bill in his capacity as member of the Nimlet might be different than the Governor subsequently referring the bill to the Constable after it passed in his capacity as Governor. This is probably the King's strongest argument against the referendum.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 27, 2019 14:12:07 GMT -6
Estimat Senator Plätschisch — It's difficult to defend myself against charges of "doing nothing", when quite a few of the things I've done are in private emails. And if you answered all your private emails in a timely manner, there would be no problem. The Government never knows from one day to the next about whether you are silent because you don't care; you are silent because you tacitly approve; you are silent because you didn't get the email for some reason; you are silent because you decided to take an unannounced Talossan break for a few weeks; or you are silent because - as in this case - you intend to "parachute in" and destroy a Government initiative at the proper time. Your "parachuting" combined with your intermittent availability makes the relationship between Government and Monarchy one of being nervous about an impending threat from an unpredictable hostile party, rather than a partnership.
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