The Destiny Awaits Amendment

[Ian Plätschisch]

WHEREAS There has been a lot of talk lately about how every province should be able to choose its own destiny without interference from the Ziu, and

WHEREAS The Organic Law seems to think that the Ziu should have a say in such matters, and 

WHEREAS I guess we should have a discussion about this


THEREFORE Org.XVII.5, which currently reads:

Provinces are Cantons (or groups thereof) which are self-governing and autonomous. They are administered by constitutional governments elected democratically within the Province. Provincial borders may only be changed by the Ziu with the consent of the Province or Provinces in question.

is hereby amended to read:

Provinces are Cantons (or groups thereof) which are self-governing and autonomous. They are administered by constitutional governments elected democratically within the Province. Provincial borders may only be changed by and with the consent of the Province or Provinces in question.

[Viteu Marcianüs]

I can get behind this. Should this also amend Section 1, which reads:

"The metropolitan territory of Talossa is subdivided into Cantons (els Cantons) and Provinces. Cantons are defined according to historical borders, but Provinces may, subject to approval by the Ziu, alter these borders, including to create new Cantons. Provinces may also establish such internal subdivisions as they find necessary or convenient for local government. The Canton is the smallest possible territorial subdivision which can be transferred from one Provincial jurisdiction to another."

Also, perhaps already discussed, but doesn't The Fantastic Fusion of Fiova and Florencia Bill require 2/3s Senate support under Org.L.V.10 ("Bills creating new provinces or changing the number of provinces in any way require two-thirds of the Senäts.")? 

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

I strongly oppose this, for the purely practical reason that it is shockingly easy for one or two people to assume virtually complete control over a province. No group of one or two people should be able to annihilate a province. This would be incredibly easy to abuse.

[Ian Plätschisch]

The reason I proposed this was to hear arguments for and against it. I don’t have an opinion one way or the other yet.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

AD has a point about it being stupidly easy to seize control of a Province. Which is why I would prefer a third way in this debate, i.e. make any change in provincial boundaries subject to approval by referendum in every province affected, individually. You'll note I built this into the F-F merger bill - nothing happens until both the Fiovan and Florencian peoples in referendum give their say-so.

Although I considered the Senator from M-M's insistence on geographical continuity unfounded, honestly I didn't find it as wrongheaded as the people who were sceptical about the merger because they wanted some grand consolidation of all provinces. If you really want the provinces to be bottom-up laboratories of democracy - or even "sandboxes" where people or ideas which are not ready for national prime-time can be checked out - then force-assimilating them from above would kill any prospect of that stone dead.

[Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir]

One way i think the wording of this could change would be to have the amendment something like:-

Provinces are Cantons (or groups thereof) which are self-governing and autonomous. They are administered by constitutional governments elected democratically within the Province. Provincial borders may only be changed by the following actions

1. The Proivinces, through provincial legislation, legislate and approve a bill to Merge in each respeice province, or provinces
2. Once all Provinces have legistlated for this, the Zui shall hold a vote within two clarks of the passage of the bill in all repective provinces, on whether to allow the bill to be put to the citizens in the province via a referendum, to be conducted by the Chancery. This clause shall only be enacted if the bill in one or more province has been passed by less than 5 members of each provincial government.
3. Should the reqquirements have been met per previous artlicles, either by the Provincial governments, or the Zui, the Chancery will conduct the referendum on behalf of the provinces involved, and will only be ratified by a 2/3rd majority of citizens in each respective province by a secret ballot.
4. Should the 2/3rd majoritiy be reached then the merge shall be able to move forward.

The reason i would suggest something similar to this, as it does provide a check from the Zui to prevent 1 or 2 people to force a province into this. But also gives multiple steps to check review the process along the way. The reason i would suggest that the chancery conducts this is to prevent disagreements within provices about electoral procidures of the referendum, so that all citizens elegible to vote feels secure in their vote as it is being done by a party that shouldnt have a vested interest in the result.

Anyway, this is just my thoughts on this, take them as you will.

[Viteu Marcianüs]

I don't really see how the 2 people theory really plays out. At the end of the day, all this would do is allow the provinces to "trade" cantons if they saw fit. It couldn't actually abolish or create new provinces without 2/3 majority of the Senate.

[Ian Plätschisch]

May 19, 2019 18:23:51 GMT -6 Viteu Marcianüs said:

I don't really see how the 2 people theory really plays out. At the end of the day, all this would do is allow the provinces to "trade" cantons if they saw fit. It couldn't actually abolish or create new provinces without 2/3 majority of the Senate.

I meant for mergers to be included in this; it’s just sloppy writing that it’s not (although I never meant for this to be Clarked anyway (since the new OrgLaw is about to be voted on)

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

May 19, 2019 18:23:51 GMT -6 Viteu Marcianüs said:

I don't really see how the 2 people theory really plays out. At the end of the day, all this would do is allow the provinces to "trade" cantons if they saw fit. It couldn't actually abolish or create new provinces without 2/3 majority of the Senate.

Well, take yourself as an example. You didn't do anything wrong or anything, but look at how you became senator. You personally proposed a change to the law in your province that restricted registration times and methods and set up the election. Then you conducted the election and you were the only candidate. You won, and now you are a senator. Other people voted for the law and for you, of course. But it is not even the slightest stretch to imagine someone proposing changes to a provincial law that would empower a new office, getting themselves elected to the new office, and then making themselves the arbiter of some big decisions. The scope of those decisions should be limited. In literally every province except the newest, this would have been possible at some point in their history, often for years and for some right at this moment.

The Ziu would almost certainly rubber-stamp nearly any reasonable provincial merger that did not endanger the nation or have some bad stuff behind it like a local strongman (even then they'd probably wave it through if that strongman had the right friends).

This bill purports to fix a problem that doesn't exist with a solution that is dangerous. I know it is exploratory, and I hope that exploration finds terra non grata.

[Viteu Marcianüs]

Nice innuendo there. Vuode has a unique way of doing things. Not only was my proposal passed, those in other parties offered amendments that were accepted. The procedure for the Senate election adopted how we join our Estats Xhenerais. It was never contentious.

Here, a provincial merger must receive 2/3rd support of the Senate because it changes the composition.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

May 19, 2019 18:58:08 GMT -6 Viteu Marcianüs said:

Nice innuendo there. Vuode has a unique way of doing things. Not only was my proposal passed, those in other parties offered amendments that were accepted. The procedure for the Senate election adopted how we join our Estats Xhenerais. It was never contentious.

Here, a provincial merger must receive 2/3rd support of the Senate because it changes the composition.

I was not making any sort of innuendo. I explicitly said that I didn't think you did anything wrong. I will say it again if you would like. It was just an example of the sort of dramatic changes that can originate from one person. Like I said, other people voted for the law and voted for you, and you are a perfectly legitimate senator.

[Viteu Marcianüs]

I'm not taking the bate. I said my piece. I'm not against this proposal per se because I don't really see the danger you claim. Of course, it's kinda funny that you're concerned with "one" person having an a potential undue amount of power given your advocacy for the King maintaining exclusive control in other arena. But that's that. No reason to continue debating a bill that has no intention of being Clarked.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Yes, like most Talossans, I like our constitutional monarchy and want to retain it.

The king was elected by the nation in a democratic referendum and is subject to a wide variety of strict checks and balances, but -- more importantly -- he has the full scrutiny of the entire nation on him. Things like your post signature are a good indicator of why it is unlikely that His Majesty might quietly write and pass a bill increasing his power, even if structures within our government didn't prevent it.

Provinces don't have that protection. Six threads were created on the Vuode board during the whole of 2018. Ten in M-M. Five in Maricopa. Two in Florencia. Most Talossans just don't pay much attention to their province. Eliminating the requirement for the Ziu to weigh in on provincial mergers or abolitions would be a very poor idea, since right now it at least serves as a requirement that people notice what's happening.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

"Ooh, isn't this exciting? The boys are getting tough!"

- Queen Elizabeth in Blackadder II

[Lüc da Schir]

May 19, 2019 16:42:29 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

I strongly oppose this, for the purely practical reason that it is shockingly easy for one or two people to assume virtually complete control over a province. No group of one or two people should be able to annihilate a province. This would be incredibly easy to abuse.

I have to agree with AD in toto. The current method is not broken, so it shouldn't really be changed.

I don't really get Miestrâ's shock at my own reservations to the FL-FV merger bill, but well, to each one his own.