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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 13, 2019 14:54:00 GMT -6
It is possible that a full hearing will you bear you out. I decline to litigate this further with you here, and will only say that I did anticipate this argument in my brief.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Feb 13, 2019 14:58:10 GMT -6
A discussion that is completely irrelevant in this context. How does a lack of action equal a precedent?
So, if the Ziu legislated on something that fell foul of the CoR&F and nobody was clever enough to catch it at the time; you would later argue that a precedent has been set for allowing future legislation to breach the Covenant again?
One part of the Article means what you say it means (the part that says 'equal sovereignty'). Other parts of the Article mean other things. Note the use of the word 'or' between all the applicable qualifications in the article.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Feb 13, 2019 15:04:16 GMT -6
Absolutely Novel Legal Arguments Discovered When They Suit Someone, Which Would Have Totally F*cked Things Up If Actually Applied Throughout History, a Short Talossan List:"The King didn't have to proclaim all 19 years of OrgLaw Amendments for them to take effect, but he can negative- proclaim this one!" "Absolutely any change to Senatorial elections in a Province has to not only pass a referendum in that province, but with a 2/3 majority which I just made up!" Particularly funny that the Senator from Vuode talks about protecting ranked choice voting when such would be declared invalid if this legal argument were proved valid. As would any change to Provincial elections in the last 22 years, considering we don't take province-by-province counts in referendums. Talk about not considering the consequences of one's actions. We don't need to take province-by-province counts in any and all referenda. Only the ones that affect one of the following: A) the representation of a province in the Senäts B) the territory of a province C) equal sovereignty of a province
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 13, 2019 15:09:11 GMT -6
No-one sensible believes that "representation" means "the details of elections". AD is just throwing mud at the wall to see if it'll stick. "Precedent" is indeed something that is taken into account by courts in this scenario. If we didn't think this was a problem when RCV was brought in, why do we think it's a problem now? What has changed?
By the way, the fact that people are only pulling this out of the hat after 22 years shows that the existing OrgLaw is not the solid document which has stood the test of time like some people have been claiming it is! It proves the need for root-and-branch OrgLaw reform to make sure the law says what we always believed it says.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 13, 2019 15:28:38 GMT -6
The simple text of Org.XV.5 seems to have utterly blindsided the sponsors of the proposed constitution. That itself should be alarming. This was not an obscure provision or some magical trick. If anyone's going to design a new government, they would be well-advised to take a moment to think things like this through.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 13, 2019 15:43:04 GMT -6
This was not an obscure provision or some magical trick. Listen and listen well. I read XV.5 several times and couldn't understand what you were talking about until you explained your laughable "reasoning" in your appeal to the Cort. You have no chance that this reading will be accepted by the Cort. It is a ridiculous abuse of language and a blatantly partisan attempt to rig the referendum. You have an incredibly high opinion of yourself which has turned you into Talossa's equivalent of Larry Klayman. I would hope that you would learn from your mistakes, but that would also be totally without precedent.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 13, 2019 16:16:12 GMT -6
I hope you are wrong, but we will see.
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Post by Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h on Feb 13, 2019 17:09:37 GMT -6
The position of the Chancery as of now is therefore that a majority in every separate provinces is NOT needed for 52RZ19 to pass.I might still decide to consult with the Electoral Commission on this matter, although I'm not sure this is strictly required. Of course, ultimately, it is up to the scribe Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h to determine whether the amendment has become law or not. I will see to my part in this matter by Friday. - GV, Scribe
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 13, 2019 17:14:26 GMT -6
Thanks to a kindly contributor reminding me that the OrgLaw amendment which brought in the secret ballot was not brought to referendum on a province-by-province basis either; so that would be inOrganic too if this logic were worth anything. This is a re-run of the Proclamation Crisis, in that Talossans opposed to something come up with a novel reading of the OrgLaw which, if adopted, would make a lot of 20-odd years of Talossan constitutional history unlawful. Either they didn't think about that, or they didn't care as long as they win "this" fight.
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Feb 13, 2019 17:16:16 GMT -6
For what it's worth, I remember a not too distant past where a Scribe withheld consent of the promulgation of an amendment pursuant to a court order, but was criticized for such an action. I have no problem with the Scribery making a determination like what the Chancery suggests it is able to here, but I am surprised at the turnaround of opinion on what the appropriate role of the Scribe is.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Feb 13, 2019 17:48:42 GMT -6
I'm not suggesting the actions of the scribery do not need to be legally correct or that the scribe is free from criticism if someone were to believe (rightly or wrongly) they are not, just that ultimately it is the scribery that implements the law with regards to amending the law or not. Of course if the chancery, on its own or because of a court order, only publishes national results, then the scribery will not really have any option, because it does not have the information.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 13, 2019 17:53:16 GMT -6
Thanks to a kindly contributor reminding me that the OrgLaw amendment which brought in the secret ballot was not brought to referendum on a province-by-province basis either; so that would be inOrganic too if this logic were worth anything. This is a re-run of the Proclamation Crisis, in that Talossans opposed to something come up with a novel reading of the OrgLaw which, if adopted, would make a lot of 20-odd years of Talossan constitutional history unlawful. Either they didn't think about that, or they didn't care as long as they win "this" fight. It is possible that a full hearing will you bear you out. I decline to litigate this further with you here, and will only say that I did anticipate this argument in my brief.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 13, 2019 18:43:19 GMT -6
Incidentally, if I were just trolling, I'd never bother doing any of the earnest work I do to try to improve legislation. I'd just create the Official Talossan Kate Bush Fan Club, appoint myself the Official Greatest Kate Bush Fan, and proceed to deliver terrible and dumb tributes to her work.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 13, 2019 18:54:38 GMT -6
Yeah, but I just think that's funny. And it would be even funnier if the picture were of Tori Amos.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Feb 13, 2019 19:03:19 GMT -6
My favourite Kate Bush song is Nine Million Bicycles.
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