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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 23, 2019 11:31:34 GMT -6
Would you be okay with it being passed by PD with the proviso it is only in effect until the end of the first Clark next term? That would make it a temporary measure, necessary because of circumstances, that would end the instant the Ziu would have had the chance to pass it by their own power.
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Feb 23, 2019 13:42:59 GMT -6
I don't know that this necessarily hands all the power over to the majority. There have been minority party Tuisac'h before. That was my first parliamentary role in the Republic. Essentially, the majority wanted to populate the cabinet. So they handed the speakership to the opposition.
Not an incredibly common occurrence, but it has its own logic. Also, it made for a very interesting dynamic on the floor. Maybe an "opposition speaker" is something worth thinking about, so long as powers are kept within limits (naturally). Ie, the Cosa majority is called upon by the Head of State to name the Seneschal, the opposition (or maybe crossbench minority) are called upon to name the speaker.
Thing is, Wittiquette should not be enforceable on the floor of the legislature. Many nations (the US included) have provisions in their legal code exempting legislators from such things as a matter of course, with the Body itself then defining proper behaviour. The Hopper, though described as an "informal lounge" is where the majority of legislating gets done, and so should be considered an extension of the parliamentary floor. Wittiquette is the established rules of a private organization that graciously allows the Talossan people to use this forum. That's a major problem when it comes to silencing MZ's. Or... well... anyone, really.
Parliament does need a sheriff, yes indeed. But even moreso, the Talossan people need a place that belongs to themselves.
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Feb 23, 2019 13:53:42 GMT -6
Two of the most important reasons for *having* "Wittiquette" apply in the Ziu and Hopper as well as anywhere else.
First, these boards are open to search engines; they're also open to people checking us out to see what we're like; and we don't want (I don't want, anyway, and I hope nobody else does) to have Talossa's public face be one of obscenity, abuse, and general ugliness.
And second, this kind of personal attack and abuse makes the whole country a whole lot less attractive even for people who are already Talossans. (Glüc touched on this a little while ago.) We do not want to alienate our own people from our and their nation.
— John R
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Feb 23, 2019 14:09:37 GMT -6
Two of the most important reasons for *having* "Wittiquette" apply in the Ziu and Hopper as well as anywhere else. First, these boards are open to search engines; they're also open to people checking us out to see what we're like; and we don't want (I don't want, anyway, and I hope nobody else does) to have Talossa's public face be one of obscenity, abuse, and general ugliness. And second, this kind of personal attack and abuse makes the whole country a whole lot attractive even for people who are already Talossans. (Glüc touched on this a little while ago.) We do not want to alienate our own people from our and their nation. — John R You are correct. Nobody wants that last bit. Or for the public face of Talossa to be one of ugliness (maybe pugliness... where its so ugly it's cute). Nobody is arguing for that.
But Wittiquette is your personal rules for your personal forum (and you just so happen to also be King... so the wiki tells me). Nowhere is there a legal basis for censoring an MZ and shutting them out of, frankly, the only way we have to conduct business efficiently.
If Talossa is a nation, then it must be run via rule of law. And despite the oft-repeated fact that "Witt isn't Talossa," Witt access is necessary for citizenship. The prospective clock doesn't start ticking until their first post. If one is locked out of Witt, then one's ability to conduct a civic and cultural life is significantly impaired.
Right now, a private individual (you, independent from your de jure reign as King) has the call on who does and doesn't get to participate. That is, in one of the most literal senses of the word, Tyrannical. The very institution is structurally so. And that is the problem. Your and my definitions of obscenity differ, I am just about certain on this. This is normal in the course of being different people. But the bigger difference is that you can decide that I have been obscene, and lock me out.
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Feb 23, 2019 14:25:03 GMT -6
I'd point out that the "Wittiquette" post has been in place since February of 2008. It cannot come as a surprise to anyone that Wittenberg is a private board, with some rules of behaviour. These rules have been VERY lightly administered, but they're there, and occasionally they are invoked. Nobody signed any "declaration of obedience to the Wittiquette instructions", but everyone, on becoming a Talossan, knew the rules were there and what they were.
— John R
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Feb 23, 2019 14:27:26 GMT -6
As to the substance of the Bill, I'd be glad (as Witt Admin) to enforce Wittiquette more strictly than I have done in the past, when asked to by the authorities of the Ziu, whether the Speaker or a Sheriff, or whatever. If that's any help ...
— John R
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 23, 2019 14:41:47 GMT -6
Well, you didn't Clark it and we moved on to other things, so I think I can be excused for thinking you had moved on. It's a shame, because we could have passed this. This is one of this situations where I don't understand whether AD is legitimately confused or trolling for sport, so I will just ask this. Considering the final draft of this bill was produced on February 7, six days after the Sixth Clark of the 52nd Cosa came out, which Clark would it have gone on? *sigh*
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 23, 2019 14:49:09 GMT -6
The King should have no role in enforcing order in the Cosâ. The King should not be involved in the Cosa at all. In real constitutional monarchies, the Monarch is actually banned from the floor of the lower House of Parliament. England fought a civil war over this.
I am, meanwhile, irked - but not surprised - at the people talking about how V's temper tantrum is the only example of abuse and nastiness keeping people out of Talossa. If we can't accept that when AD smears and trolls people - accusing his opponents of corruption for being suspicious about whether he should be given Government money - that is also abuse which drives people away from Talossa.
I repeat: I was driven away from Talossa for 6 months when AD started accusing me of corruption re: the Proclamation Crisis court case. I was hit with serious depression and insomnia. No sanction has ever been taken against AD for that. And yet there seems to be a consensus that V is some kind of mad dog that needs to be sent to a nice farm upstate. Harassment and abuse put in flowery language is no less harassment and abuse.
As Acting Seneschál I would be happy to PD an original version of this bill, giving the Túischac'h the power to enforce order in the Hopper. Not the watered down version based on AD whining that he couldn't trust the Túischac'h. He can trust the King, though, whom no-one voted for. And that, friends and colleagues, is IMHO the real corruption, the real problem in Talossa. We have an unaccountable Witt administrator/authority who is politically biased towards the RUMP party and its leader Davinescù, and in return the RUMP/Davinescù makes flowery speeches promoting this state of affairs.
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Feb 23, 2019 15:52:51 GMT -6
[...] the King, though, whom no-one voted for. As a matter of fact, I was elected by a 2/3 vote in both the Cosa and the Senate, and by 86% of the plebiscite confirming the election. (37 yes, 6 no, 2 — Prince Patrick and I — abstaining.) And it was absolutely clear that the vote was for a lifetime, hereditary office. Interestingly, two of the No votes were from staunch CLP people, Baron Fritz and Greg Rajala. V was a strong supporter of Yes. I'd forgotten. — John R
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 23, 2019 15:59:18 GMT -6
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Feb 23, 2019 17:09:44 GMT -6
But a difficulty with the issue here is that your enforcement of Wittiquette does not stem from those elected Royal powers, and should they become tied to the throne... they descend to your heirs without so much as a "by your leave" from the people. They are a form of private fiat, regardless of how you wield them.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 28, 2019 13:13:12 GMT -6
Can we please keep going with this? For obvious reasons, I'm hesitant to take the lead and do my own bill, and I don't want this to just drift off nowhere just because the problem is not actively happening at this moment.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 28, 2019 16:47:26 GMT -6
Can we please keep going with this? For obvious reasons, I'm hesitant to take the lead and do my own bill, and I don't want this to just drift off nowhere just because the problem is not actively happening at this moment. I have no idea what you're talking about, "drifting". I'll Clark this bill for the first Clark of the new Cosa, unless there are any issues.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 28, 2019 20:16:39 GMT -6
Well, as I understand it, the Cosa and Senats will be making rules, right? So can we start on those?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 28, 2019 23:03:52 GMT -6
Well, as I understand it, the Cosa and Senats will be making rules, right? So can we start on those? You posted something from the standing orders of the NZ Parliament, for obvious reasons I'd be happy to start from them
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