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Post by Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h on Oct 10, 2018 13:16:51 GMT -6
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001 
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Oct 10, 2018 14:10:22 GMT -6
When half of the Constitution simply references other documents, I don't know what the benefit of having it would be.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Oct 10, 2018 14:20:00 GMT -6
So I'm not quite clear on the Suuri Lakeja thing, since it seems like it's just very confusing. It seems like you've just divided the constitutional stuff in half, and put half in this new thing that can be amended in the same way as the OrgLaw. But while it's nice to have an OrgLaw that's shiny and seldom changed, I guess, I think the problems would outweigh the benefits of that approach. For one thing, do we really want to intentionally make it easy to drastically change our system from constitutional monarchy to democracy and back? The ongoing and unbroken traditions of our system are part of what set us apart from a subreddit someone started last week.
I guess that's another part of why I'm so reluctant to just jettison all this stuff and make such huge changes, despite everyone's proposals.
What does Talossa have going for it, in terms of assets?
Well, there's the language, which almost no one knows and few people ever use beyond a handful of jargon. So we should work harder at promoting it.
There's the community, which can be pretty toxic and is actually really tiny (I have two mailing lists with more than twice our national population on them, and I bet other folks could say the same). So we need to shepherd it carefully.
There's the chance to participate in a meaningful way in politics, law, etc. People love that, so that's good.
And there's our history and cultural connections... which folks are trying to discard!
In other words, I could write a constitution next week, get some people involved with some wackiness that might be fun, and encourage a few dozen people to vote and run for office. A lot of our assets are easily replicable. You don't have to take my word for it... look at how many similar little micronations have risen and fallen over the years! They don't have their own amazing language, but we can sometimes be barely said to have Talossan, either, since it's sadly under-used.
Our history and culture stand out as things that set us apart from the crowd and cannot be replicated. Many have tried, even designing systems that are ostensibly superior, only to dwindle down to nothing because others weren't interested. (Why join a political simulation under rules that someone designed last week, when you could design your own rules that will be perfectly what you want?)
When I see this grandiose proposals, that's what I ask myself: why would anyone want to join a tiny country that mostly takes place on the Internet if there's little real continuity? What's the attraction? The name "Talossa" isn't magical. If there's no more reason to join us than a political club that also has traditions dating back to last week, then why us?
We're looking at an dusty felt hat filled with gems. Some folks want to dump the jewels on the floor to be lost in the open, so that we can tidy up the hat and make it look clean and sharp. But hats are cheap. People join Talossa for the continuity -- not to just be a part of something, but be a meaningful part.
Let's all grab our jewels and hold on tight, rather than letting them drop out into the open.
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Post by Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h on Oct 10, 2018 21:58:23 GMT -6
When half of the Constitution simply references other documents, I don't know what the benefit of having it would be. That thought has crossed my mind, too. |
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Post by Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h on Oct 10, 2018 23:04:44 GMT -6
To be very clear, I am not opposed to my party's work on OrgLaw reform-revision-rewriting. I have had this proposal of mine in my head for quite some time, and I wanted to throw it out into the open.
I want a constitution that is shiny for as long as possible. The constitution I have outlined is also difficult to amend, and the Suuri Lakeja (Finnish for 'Great Laws') would be amended in the same as the Constitution.
Additionally, and I did not make myself clear on this point, I would in the Suuri Lakeja replicate as much as the current OrgLaw as humanly-possible...including the hereditary monarchy, the hereditary aspect of which I freely admit I no longer care for.
As for the connection with the past, I have revealed (hopefully with a link that actually works this time 'round) a revised set of Covenants based upon the current Covenants of Rights and Freedoms.
The 20xx Constitution does not do away with the hereditary monarchy John Woolley and the RUMP so dearly love and adore. It does not do away with the Talossan language, territory, the Cosâ, the Clark, the Secretary of State, or anything else save the antiquated and tired old 1997 Organic Law, the original of which our country does not even possess any longer along with a good deal of its judicial record.
A new constitution for Talossa designed to avoid the incessant re-workings of details better suited for statute law, but of such importance they need a category of law of their own is the future for Talossa. While preserving the past, we can enter the future with a document that may be difficult to amend, but yes, eventually changing to an elective-monarchy would be a seamless process in terms of care for the text of the constitution itself.
which leads me onto a tangent I need to get off my chest...
The old political order that existed in Talossa from its very beginnings has not existed since the end of the CLP ca. 2006. It was the last vestige of the spirit of not only the old PC, but the best parts of the Black hand, the ZPT, the RCT, and yes, even the third and last party to call itself 'Liberal'.
In that political vacuum entered the RUMP which had no real rival until Reunision when people came who added to the chorus of those who dared to question the new world order of Crown, Country, Counts, and King John.
My understanding of modern Irish politics is that it continues, in a way, the Irish Civil War. And while I do not compare Talossan politics ever to the calamity that was the Irish Civil War, modern Talossan politics has its roots in the Talossan Cold War of 2005-2012 in which both the Republic and the Kingdom fought for the soul of Talossa as well as to fill the cultural and political power-vacuum created with Ben's exit in August 2005.
Which begs the question: if Ben was gone, why did the people in the Republic not come back to the Kingdom immediately?
We did not come back because we knew that in the resultant Kingdom society, we would be second-class citizens. Beginning with Ben and continuing with the current monarch and others, we were never given the grace and slack that would have caused John and friends to say, "Traitors they may have been, but can we blame them for quitting? Domains and websites be damned. There are bigger issues here."
The Kingdom had done too good a job at painting us as Betrayers, Thieves, and Keepers for us to be anything more in the Kingdom than pariahs. Who wants to 'come home' to that?
We Who Came Back are still, I believe, fighting for that respect. Not as superiors, but as societal equals. No-one was worthy to wear Ben Madison's crown. Not John Woolley. Not Greg R. Not Fritz. And not even Dan L. (though he came the closest, I think).
And it is our belief the monarchy of Talossa has become irredeemably corrupt and prone to abuse in the way not only Ben did it, but in the way in which we Splitters were marginalized.
Years ago, I asked Hooligan to give Daphne or Kane a phone call. One phone call, I think, could have cleared things up ten years ago at least to a certain extent and closed the Talossan Cold War far sooner than it did.
Hooligan said 'no'. Why he said 'no', I cannot remember, but through the years, one theme has come up time and time again. The inorganic nature of our leaving, which I freely acknowledge.
John Woolley was the last leader, I believe, of that Kingdom spirit that refused to give We Who Left any grace or understanding in the wake of 2003-2004. Never once did he say, "Websites and inorganicity be damned - Ben was an ass. I would have left, too.". He wanted to do Talossa in his own way, and the fire and energy from the Republic of Talossa were seen by him, I believe, as a direct threat to the way he wanted to do Talossa.
This is why he instigated the Proclamation Crisis contrary to the will of the people in referendum acting on the authority of the Ziu to do so: to have let that amendment go through would have cut into the way he wanted to do Talossa. The King found a loophole in the law and exploited it.
John and others have hid behind the wall of legality. You, AD, have hid behind that wall and in the late aughts, I also remember you as being one of the great criers of 'Betrayed, Stolen, Kept'. Hooligan hid behind walls, too.
John Woolley, Alexander D., and Hooligan are giants of Talossa - particularly John. Talossa in so many ways has become a better place because of these three. When we did not come back in '05, they set about helping to and leading the effort in rebuilding the Kingdom's civil service, society, governmental processes, and framework whereby hundreds of people since have come to the Regipäts and enjoyed themselves.
But in their reaching out to Those Who Left, John, Hool, and AD failed. Reunision only began because in December 2011, Miestrâ Schivâ offered a truce. No-one in the Kingdom ever made to my knowledge any such overtures.
Of course, I am not saying in this little scuffle the Republic was spotless, but the ball was in John Woolley's court, and a simple visit to our Wittenberg ca. 2005-6 or even an email or two to the right people would have done wonders to end the Talossan Cold War before it ever began.
In visiting our Wittenberg, John could have made quite clear he was not acknowledging the Republic's existence, but rather acknowledging the existence of its community. I believe John to be a very good and decent individual, and I wish to God he had handled things differently.
The RUMP exists, I believe, to preserve Talossan history and culture by ensuring literally nothing in Talossan law is changed, even for the better. Change for change's sake is never a good thing, and I think the RUMP would agree with me on that, but the stymieing of change for the sake of protecting in perpetuity a woefully-imperfect system of government as well as the way in which King John and his friends want to do Talossa is not good for Talossa and hurts the preservation and betterment of the best parts of the creative and community legacy of Robert Ben Madison.
The hereditary aspect of the monarchy needs to go. No-one in Talossa today is worthy of wearing Ben Madison's crown.
The antiquated and disorganized mess of the 1997 Organic Law needs to be retired.
The inadvertent pattern of alternating the names 'Constitution' and 'Organic Law' should be preserved as a Talossan quirk.
The Talossan Cold War needs to end, and Reunision needs to not just happen de jure, but also in the hearts of each and every person so involved.
We are still two countries.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Oct 10, 2018 23:50:35 GMT -6
I honestly do not understand the spirit in which this post is intended. It simultaneously nurtures grievances like a caring mother -- you return several times to a forum banner I had a decade ago! -- while dismissing the legitimate concerns of the same era. Look, when the Republic was founded, several of the people who had custody of Talossa's web presence -- forums and website -- took advantage of their position and appropriated those things, booting everyone who didn't leave from the forum. I thought that was not great, and you seem to agree. "A Nation Sundered" ends right before that happens, and you say here that it wasn't good. The people who left had every reason to leave, because Ben was a jerk. I have said that a dozen times, and so have a lot of other people. I'm saying it again right now, because that's not controversial or unusual. Pretty much everyone agrees on that point. Ben was a jerk, it made sense to leave. I don't think a single person in the Kingdom would say right now, "Boy it sure was evil of those people to leave back then!" No one thinks that! That's just crazy! I am not holding on to these grievances, and I am not sure anyone else is, and you should let it go, too. I had a forum banner a decade ago that upset you. I have apologized for that many times. You are (sort of) apologizing for the Witt X and talossa.com thing, and that's fine too. No one cares any more. I have not devoted an ounce of thought to that stuff for years. If it's preying on you, let it go. We have had similar conversations to this one before, so this is disheartening. It does not do away with the Talossan language, territory, the Cosâ, the Clark, the Secretary of State, or anything else If you thought I was accusing you of eliminating every aspect of Talossan culture, be assuaged. My worry is that we're trading away real value in our OrgLaw of more than twenty years for... well, it's not clear, actually. One that won't need to be amended very much because there will be a second constitution that can be amended a lot, I think? antiquated and tired old 1997 Organic Law Supreme governing documents should be antiquated and old. It's usually a good sign. The RUMP exists, I believe, to preserve Talossan history and culture by ensuring literally nothing in Talossan law is changed, even for the better. You are speaking to the person who organized and redid the entire legal code, top to bottom, a few years ago (with some excellent help). This is clearly not true, and it does you no credit to say it. I hope you do not believe it. We are still two countries. Not in my book. We're one country. Our Seneschal immigrated in 2015. The Distain is a former RUMPer. Dama Miestra and I are collaborating (touchily and with a lot of squabbling, but still!) on a newspaper. You're holding on to this stuff, but that's you... it's not us. |
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Post by Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h on Oct 11, 2018 0:13:34 GMT -6
About the Cold War issues, I hope you are absolutely right about all that. I keep forgetting about you and Miestrâ working together on media. lol
The Covenants are the continuity with tradition and our history.
The Constitution will remain shiny, and with it will come the chance to do what we could not do before and preserve the full judicial record of a new governing document.
The Suuri Lakeja represent a lesser constitution, to be suure.
As for your work on El Lex, I have given you and others great credit for that more times than not. :-)
I have a tendency to be too much in my own brain and not see the forest for the trees. I've been wanting to spout all that stuff for a good while, and if I'm proven wrong on all of it then so be it. No matter what Rudy G. might say, truth is truth, and if what I have said aside from my advocating of my brilliant and profound constitutional concepts is proven all-wrong, and if the truth of things comes out stronger, then I'm ready to eat crow.
I am also, I realize as I'm typing all this way too past my bedtime, throwing mud-ideas and opinions against the wall in advance of my eventual-forthcoming Talossan biography. This post was certainly a horrible way to do that, but everything you read from me in my previous post was genuinely-felt by me.
Old things long-forgotten by everyone else, but I still see the ramifications of all of this playing out in Talossan politics today...
And I will say what I should have said elsewhere: in the case of I. Canun, John's calmness and leadership during that time were what Talossa needed.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Oct 11, 2018 0:27:55 GMT -6
I've been wanting to spout all that stuff for a good while, and if I'm proven wrong on all of it then so be it. It's not about right or wrong. It's about you being able to enjoy Talossa and not see this yawning schism underlying everything. That stuff has passed, if for no other reason than only a few remember it. Most Talossans weren't here for it. I just want you to be able to let it go, too. Yes, there's some underlying stuff from Reunision. A whole province exists because of that, after all, and the Republic is an eternal and valuable part of our history. But I'm not holding any grudges and I don't know that anyone else is. Miestra and I even had a big long discussion once where we agreed mutually to just forget all that crap from before -- calling people dictators and my banner -- and we did. Neither she nor I have brought it up since, I don't think. I mean, it really bothers me that Witt X is gone and all of the history and culture from those years in the Republic are locked away or lost. But I got over it, and it's not as important as moving forward together. But that doesn't mean your feelings aren't legitimate! They are, and they make me sad. And maybe I'm just wrong, and you're right. But I don't think so... I think Reunision is complete. I hope so, anyway. It doesn't make everything all sunshine, of course, but it's good. You're an amazing Talossan, so I hope you come around on this one. |
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