A Bill To Create An Organic Law Convention

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Oct 11, 2018 19:28:15 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

Oh, weird. Ok, I see it in the draft now. I had assumed we would be looking at all of the various possibilities -- things like GV's proposal or Flip's. I do see where it is specified that only the preordained one will be the basis for changes and revisions. Maybe we can at least ask them to contribute the things they thought made their versions superior?

Oh, everyone will be entitled to participate in the convention, and to "Pseudo-Hopper" and "Pseudo-Clark" any amendments they like; just on the understanding that the document we're amending will be the Marcianüs/Plätschich Draft 2019 OrgLaw.

It is hard to have to draw a line against GV's draft, which he's put a lot of effort in, but this was a Government initiative and V's draft was that which the Government went with. Hell, if the whole thing gets shot down at final vote, we might start again and GV's would be as good a place to start as any.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

So you already have the end product pretty much in place. And you and the Government are unwilling to compromise at all on process? No possibility that we could consider the whole thing a giant amendment to the Orglaw, rather than repeal and replace?

[Munditenens Tresplet]

I would want to start with the 2019 draft that the Seneschal and Distain Hoppered, with a couple things removed such as the new method to remove the King.

As the individual presiding over the convention, however, I would not be adverse if some Ziu members wanted to introduce an amendment to the draft which overhauled or changed a large portion of the draft. One example might be perhaps AD would like to propose an amendment that reverts the draft to our current OrgLaw. Ideally, in the order of rules that I would enforce here, these large scale changes would be considered by the convention first—and either accepted or disposed of—so the convention can hopefully then move on to considering smaller sale changes.

As a presiding officer I would obviously treat any amendment from a standpoint of neutrality, but my personal opinion is that any large scale changes to the draft would probably be voted down. That said, it is important that the process is fair and the opportunity for the amendment to be presented is given.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

That seems reasonable to me.

[Ian Plätschisch]

I don't think waiting until the end of the 53rd Clark is necessary, but we could nonetheless have multiple pseudo-clarks before the end of the 52nd Cosa. If the bill passes in November, we could have two:

December 2018 (5th clark)
January 2019 (month of recess: January is typically a month of recess anyway)

Then the 6th Clark in February we would pass the final version.

Of course, nothing is preventing us from starting in November. We don't actually need a law to do what this law proposed we do since nothing the convention produces will be binding.

Three rounds would probably be enough then.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

So would this require any amendment to the current bill? Sorry, brain not functioning on all cylinders right now.

[Ian Plätschisch]

I guess it should be changed to allow multiple pseudo-Clarks.

[Munditenens Tresplet]

I would also suggest that I and the Seneschal have the power to move things from the Hopper to the pseudo-Clarks in order to speed things along, in addition to perhaps the time in the Hopper shortened to 7 days.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Oct 15, 2018 19:39:33 GMT -6 Munditenens Tresplet said:

I would also suggest that I and the Seneschal have the power to move things from the Hopper to the pseudo-Clarks in order to speed things along, in addition to perhaps the time in the Hopper shortened to 7 days.

Can one or both of you make the necessary amendments? I'm honestly not quite sure what you want.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Basically, I’m not even sure we need a bill, except to serve as an official proclamation that the Convention is happening. We already have the authority to do everything this bill proposes even without passing it.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

The thing is that, given that the Seneschál and the Túischac'h seem to be at daggers drawn at the moment, I rather think we do need a Law, or at least a written agreement, otherwise this whole thing will collapse in recrimination.

The other thing is that the Seneschál seems to be hammering out a bargain with the main opponent of significant Organic reform in another thread, which would destroy the very basis of this Convention that I proposed:

The duty of this Convention shall be to propose, debate upon and decide upon amendments to the Draft of the 2019 Organic Law Act (hereinafter called "the Current Draft"). The text of the Current Draft shall be that authorised by the Seneschál upon this Bill becoming law.

We start from the Current Draft Organic Law, written as a unity by the Distáin, with such amendments as the Seneschál must see fit - not revisions, even fundamental ones, to the existing text. If I can't trust the Seneschál not to bargain that away in the hope of getting the support of the sworn enemy of reform - who has shown over years that he will use any legal and rhetorical means to make sure nothing actually changes - then we must have this Law to bind everyone.

This is what the Coalition was based on. We don't want to endanger the Coalition.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

I'm not sure this law will be as magical as you think, since I don't think it could either force Dien and the Seneschal to work together if they don't want to, nor could it force the Seneschal to block any outside input in your planned fait accompli. There are no penalties for ignoring this bill. If you think legislative deadlines have any force of law, then log onto Telecomuna and tell me about it there.

Maybe we can all figure out a way to work together?

[Ian Plätschisch]

My apologies to the FreeDems if I appeared to be reneging on the spirit of this Convention or of Organic reform in general, and I can assure them that I wasn't. I was attempting to address the very specific issue of the name of the Organic Law; basically, if we split the reforms up by chapter, we could pass each one as an amendment to the current Organic Law instead of changing the name by passing a new Organic Law.

Besides the name, every last bit of the content will be exactly as the government agreed, with changes designated by this Convention. In my mind, if we were to go ahead with this plan, the amendments would be created by simply proposing each Chapter of the final draft created by the convention independently and framed as an amendment to the current Organic Law. Presuming they all passed, the outcome is the same.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

If the OrgLaw convention can be set up before November 1 - with a commitment to use the 2019 OrgLaw Draft as the basis for its deliberations, with Dien as the Chair, and with a commitment to produce a final draft for the last Clark of this Cosâ - then of course I won't have to Clark this bill. Though I really want fixed ground rules in case of shenanigans.

[Glüc da Dhi]

I would still urge the Ziu to write the appropriate amendments to the Lexhatx and pass both at the same time with both being conditional for the other passing and not create gaps in the law and trust it will work itself out.