Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Oct 2, 2018 19:04:57 GMT -6
Glad you remember the RCOR. Perhaps you also remember that you set up your Ziu Standing Committee as a deliberate attempt to undermine and pre-empt the RCOR. One of your committee members, M. E. da Lhiun, admitted as such. As to the RCOR, perhaps I should re-specify that the problem was not only with the RUMP members but with the King-appointed members who more or less blocked with the RUMP. Ieremiac'h Ventrútx was nowhere to be seen, for example, and we couldn't reach quorum. This is of course all water under the bridge and not relevant to the current process; but I won't let you or Cresti rewrite history. It is the height of hypocrisy for the RUMP to accuse the current process to be subject to partisan bias. Certainly, given the Government parties don't have a 2/3 majority in either House, no OrgLaw reform will get through without at least some support from Opposition MCs - as is appropriate. We now have to work together.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Oct 2, 2018 19:36:34 GMT -6
Glad you remember the RCOR. Perhaps you also remember that you set up your Ziu Standing Committee as a deliberate attempt to undermine and pre-empt the RCOR. One of your committee members, M. E. da Lhiun, admitted as such. As to the RCOR, perhaps I should re-specify that the problem was not only with the RUMP members but with the King-appointed members who more or less blocked with the RUMP. Ieremiac'h Ventrútx was nowhere to be seen, for example, and we couldn't reach quorum. This is of course all water under the bridge and not relevant to the current process; but I won't let you or Cresti rewrite history. It is the height of hypocrisy for the RUMP to accuse the current process to be subject to partisan bias. Certainly, given the Government parties don't have a 2/3 majority in either House, no OrgLaw reform will get through without at least some support from Opposition MCs - as is appropriate. We now have to work together. I created the Committee because I thought the Commission would be unwieldy, bureaucratic, and probably have a hard time getting things done. People should probably just read the two threads and they can come to their own conclusion about Organic reform and which approach worked best. I mean, this is the third attempt in as many years to handle the whole thing in one giant gulp while also making changes! There was Miestra's commission, there was Ian's 2017 Organic Law, and now there's this 2018 version (that is hugely different!) Maybe let's just go... you know, fix whatever the problems you see might be? If, for whatever reason, it is important to rename how legislation is handled to more closely mimic some American state legislative processes, let's do it and slap "Third Reading" on everything. Write a bill, we'll discuss it, and let it be done. If you want to handle whole sections at a time, let's put the Committee back to work, cranking out bills. I'm game.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Oct 2, 2018 22:48:21 GMT -6
Some changes based on Glüc da Dhi 's feedback: -Existing law regarding succession is now back in the OrgLaw -Only a simple majority of the Senate needed to approve amendments and overcome Royal vetoes of legislation -Seneschal does not have to be an MC -Length of each clark is specified -Sometime soon I will run a find a replace on the words Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister, and Senate to replace them with their Talossan equivalents Other responses -I love cool titles, but couldn't the Kings full title be statutory? -Please explain how we can have more elections but longer and more regular terms. I have thought about the problem of less frequent elections myself and I would love to hear your proposed solution.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Oct 2, 2018 23:04:24 GMT -6
I'll provide a list of substantive changes as soon as it is feasible for me to do so.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Oct 3, 2018 20:26:59 GMT -6
So, here's a list of changes: -The general spirit of the Simulated Coup Amendment has been included -Distinction between a Regent and a Royal Representative -Cosas last for ten clarks instead of six, getting us to a yearly election cycle -The Prime Minister may call for however many recesses they want, but doing so does not extend the time until the next election. These recesses are now called prorogations, since prorogration in the 1997 sense no longer makes much sense with the new way the Government is selected. -New removal procedures for Senators and MCs -Number of Cosa seats is determined by law (but must be approved by 2/3 of the Cosa) -Ministries are no loneger listed in the Organic Law. All Ministers must be approved by a majority of the Cosa with Royal Assent (although a royal veto can be overcome with a simple majority), and may be removed by the Seneschal with the support of either the King or a majority of the Cosa -Mandatory secret ballot -The Prime Minister is elected during the first Clark instead of appointed beforehand. The Cosa uses IRV to select between the various PM candidates and their associated budgets. The Senate also has a say in the budget. The PM requires does not require royal assent -Legislation requires two readings -New method to amend the Organic Law; Organic Convocation -Senators-elect may be charged a small fee
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Oct 3, 2018 21:15:02 GMT -6
I ran the find and replace for PM, dPM, and Senate
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Oct 3, 2018 21:25:32 GMT -6
I heartily support the following: -Number of Cosa seats is determined by law (but must be approved by 2/3 of the Cosa) -Ministries are no loneger listed in the Organic Law. All Ministers must be approved by a majority of the Cosa with Royal Assent (although a royal veto can be overcome with a simple majority), and may be removed by the Seneschal with the support of either the King or a majority of the Cosa -Mandatory secret ballot -The Prime Minister is elected during the first Clark instead of appointed beforehand. The Cosa uses IRV to select between the various PM candidates and their associated budgets. The Senate also has a say in the budget. The PM requires does not require royal assent -New method to amend the Organic Law; Organic Convocation The following I support, but I'm not sure whether they belong in the OrgLaw or statute law: I think the following should be removed as controversial and should be reintroduced as separate amendments whether we pass the new OrgLaw or not: The following I honestly don't care that much about:
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Oct 3, 2018 22:03:40 GMT -6
I will respond in due course. Proposed changes are welcomed. I implore everyone to read my short commentary om Bifurcation. The Covenants will become the overall spirit of the nation, the organic law defines the state, etc. I'm opem to making some changes.
But let's not get too crazy with watering things down. The US Constitution gets praised because of how short it is. But its shortness has lead to an unwritten Constitution that governs by Covention. As you see with president tRUMP, this can easily fall apart.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Oct 3, 2018 22:16:15 GMT -6
But let's not get too crazy with watering things down. The US Constitution gets praised because of how short it is. But its shortness has lead to an unwritten Constitution that governs by Covention. As you see with president tRUMP, this can easily fall apart. It's hard to take this whole thing seriously as a good-faith effort, with things like this from the author. I want to give the benefit of the doubt, truly. I do admit I felt a little betrayed to see so many big changes were made without any clue in the Whereas or explanation. But maybe this big list of changes (which appears to include surprises even to your own Cabinet?) was going to arrive in due course, no matter what we said. I want to give the benefit of the doubt. You guys have seen me do big things and support big things -- just check the bottom of our code of law -- so you know I'm not against major change if it's necessary. But then you have the fact that a lot of these changes just happen to be things that have been sought exclusively by the coalition government in past years, plus we have the author of this thing equating a major political party with the current American president... for no apparent reason than sheer partisan nastiness! Why is this beginning as a coalition wishlist, authored by someone whose first instinct in this thread is reflexive insult? Is this an MRPT/FDT constitution proposed by good ol' Vengeance-Will-Be-Mine up there, or is this an honest effort to come up with a constitution we can all support? Is this a partisan goal, or a Talossan one?
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Oct 3, 2018 22:22:15 GMT -6
AD, I posded the GoogleDoc for anyone to contribute months ago. Dont lecture me on good faith. You hardly employ it when you attack everything we do.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Oct 3, 2018 22:31:06 GMT -6
I criticize things that I think are bad ideas. I enthusiastically participate when I think they are good ideas. For example, in just the past couple of months, I loved and participated in the Seneschal's initiative on updating the websites (he ate a delicious sandwich!) and I leapt at the chance to participate in the Ministry of Culture's grant plan. I didn't scorn either just because of their authors or partisan backing. When the Seneschal wrote to me asking for help with the Talossan ID program this term, I spent a half-hour digging the old files out from my archives to oblige. I like Talossa and like doing Talossa.
I just want to know... is this an FDT/MRPT constitution, or is it a Talossan one?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Oct 3, 2018 22:32:49 GMT -6
AD, I posded the GoogleDoc for anyone to contribute months ago. Dont lecture me on good faith. You hardly employ it when you attack everything we do. Quoted for truth. V's draft has been out there for ages. Certain parts of it are a mild surprise to me, but only because I deliberately didn't read it carefully in advance, lol - I thought it more important to get some draft of a consistent, ground-up OrgLaw out there in public so people more picky than I could have a go at it. I do get disappointed every time the RUMP accuse this Government of trying to pull a "fast one" on them. It wasn't warranted when E. Grischün called civil service reform "Republicanism by stealth" and it's not warranted now. We are being as transparent as is appropriate. Trust me, if we were being sneaky, you wouldn't see it until it was too late...
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Oct 3, 2018 22:34:30 GMT -6
AD, I posded the GoogleDoc for anyone to contribute months ago. Dont lecture me on good faith. You hardly employ it when you attack everything we do. I criticize things that I think are bad ideas. I enthusiastically participate when I think they are good ideas. For example, in just the past couple of months, I loved and participated in the Seneschal's initiative on updating the websites (he ate a delicious sandwich!) and I leapt at the chance to participate in the Ministry of Culture's grant plan. I didn't scorn either just because of their authors or partisan backing. When the Seneschal wrote to me asking for help with the Talossan ID program this term, I spent a half-hour digging the old files out from my archives to oblige. Projection is a hell of a thing, huh? So well you keep doing it. Whatevs dude. Im m tired of your bullshit. Offer substantive changes (i.e. what the text should say). Put the work in, or disappear from my screen.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Oct 3, 2018 22:39:50 GMT -6
Here is my suggested draft. If you could point out any specific differences or problems, we can find a fix for them.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Oct 3, 2018 22:43:10 GMT -6
Oh, wait, sorry... maybe that's unfair. Why don't we go through it from the top? Let's compare drafts. One sec, let me put some side by side.
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