Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Apr 18, 2018 6:24:57 GMT -6
WHEREAS, presently, our Parliamentary institutions lack some of the common features of ordinary deliberative bodies - namely for example, codes of bylaws and committees; and WHEREAS, as far as the former are concerned, I have already proposed a number of bills fixing that, which however require further legislative action; and WHEREAS, as far as the latter are concerned, we find ourselves in a legislative void that arguably, for example, causes the Cosa's Civil Service Committee to have no Organic basis for existing; and WHEREAS, conversely, the Senate can presently estabilish "commissions", following not-yet estabilished guidelines; and WHEREAS, there is an additional tidbit about "committees" and "Royal commissions" in the Lexhatx (H.5) which similarly calls for inexistent further legislation; and WHEREAS it's about time this committee/commission problem is fixed and the relevant law are cleared up and clarified; so
THEREFORE WE, the Ziu of the Kingdom of Talossa, hereby amend the Organic Law as follows:
Section V.4, which is presently vacant, shall read as follows:
Section V.7, which reads: Shall be amended as follows: Two new sections shall be created under Article VIII to read as follows: Section VIII.7 Section VIII.8
Ureu q'estadra sa Lüc da Schir (Senator-BE)
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Jul 21, 2018 16:09:48 GMT -6
Added in the 2/3 provisions. I was tempted to spell in V.7 and VIII.8 the difference between the two types of commissions, but that doesn't seem like good Organic practice. Viteu Marcianüs ?
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Jul 22, 2018 14:02:34 GMT -6
Ugh, Lüc, I was really looking forward to getting ahead on work today in anticipation of my final day at work this upcoming Friday (I start a new, permanent position next Monday), but you just had to make me think about this. :-)
At the very core, I agree - The respective chambers should really control their own procedure.
In light of the discussion you had with Sir Cresti, I think it's important to consider some fundamental differences between the chambers. How I see it, the Cosǎ represents the macrointerest of the citizenry through election of national at-large parties apportioned seats proportionate to number of votes received, while the Senate represents the microinterest of the citizenry on a provincial basis through alternative voting limited to only those citizens of a provinces the seat represents. Hence, the Cosǎ, although arguably more instructive of the sentiment of the populace at the moment, remains subject to mob rule; while the Senate, arguably the "measuring hand" against populism, may be extremely slow to move on an issue, to the point of overt obstruction. Concerning how they should govern their respective Organic duties, each should generally be left to their own devices but retain a very limited ability to prevent shifts in makeup from enacting new rules that hurt opposition parties, or enacting rules that cannot be amended because the organic threshold remains very high. To put it another way, procedure and rules should remain consistent but autonomous, but, I offer, should have some form of a check and balance.
So without setting a high Organic threshold, I think a potential answer requires more text that creates a very narrow power of one chamber over the other - permit the Ziu to set a statute that governs how the procedures are set (i.e., the Ziu will have a very narrow ability to set the rules to set the rules). That is to say, the Senate or the Cosǎ may set whatever rules it wants to perform its tasks, and absent any statutory provision to the contrary, modify those rules as necessary. Below I provide text trying to convey this idea. If this text were adopted, I would understand it to mean that the Ziu could enact a statute that says, "If you exercise this power, you must do it according to these terms" (e.g., changes require a 2/3s threshold, up or down vote to keep all or abolish all, etc.). That way, the rules governing the rules are not held captive by a high Organic threshold, but are also not so low as to have no effect, and done so by allowing the other chamber to recognize when perhaps a rule is being changed that doesn't best serve Talossa.
To be clear - I intend to vote for your proposal as its neat and to the point; I only respond because I can foresee issues arising in the future by putting specifics in the Organic Law. On the other hand, if what I'm proposing is favored, we should draft legislation setting the rules of the rules early on so, if the amendment passes, the parameters are set. I did include the election provision, with language borrowed from the US Constitution, amend XXVII, to further prevent either body from modifying the rules simply because they can.
Finally, to the point about committees, for some reason I am, as I type this, not a fan of using the word committees in favor of bodies, but I also don't like bodies. I don't want there to be a question of "what is a committee exactly?" Further, I do not think it's appropriate for either chamber to form committees on topics outside of their jurisdiction, so I think limiting the proposed bodies to those matters that the chamber can actually determine is in order, and also not permit the interchamber committees about matters not within both chambers' prerogative. I referenced my proposed language for the rules of the rules because those should, I think, also be governed by that provision.
Proposed text:
Section V.4: (a) The Senäts retains exclusively authority to establish, modify, or repeal rules of procedure, which shall not take effect until an election of the Cosǎ shall have intervened. The Ziu may, in accord with Article X of this Organic Law, set by statute the parameters by which the Senäts may adopt, modify, or repeal its procedural rules. (b) Notwithstanding the limitation enumerated in subsection (a) of this section, the Senäts retains exclusive authority to govern all other aspects necessary to perform its Organic function, including, but not limited to, election of officers among its members.
Section V.7 (a) The Senäts may, subject to subsection (a) of section 4 of this article, establish internal bodies to fulfill its Organic obligation on matters within the competence of the Senäts. (b) The Senäts may, in accord with applicable provisions of Article VIII of the Organic Law, establish joint bodies to fulfill its Organic obligation on matters of shared competence with the Cosǎ.
Section VIII.7 (a) The Cosǎ retains exclusively authority to establish, modify, or repeal rules of procedure, which shall not take effect until an election of the Cosǎ shall have intervened. The Ziu may, in accord with Article X of this Organic Law, set by statute the parameters by which the Cosǎ may adopt, modify, or repeal its procedural rules. (b) Notwithstanding the limitation enumerated in subsection (a) of this section, the Cosǎ retains exclusive authority to govern all other aspects necessary to perform its Organic function, including, but not limited to, election of officers among its members.
Section VIII.8 (a) The Cosǎ may, subject to subsection (a) of section 7 of this article, establish internal bodies to fulfill its Organic obligation on matters within the competence of the Cosǎ. (b) The Cosǎ may, in accord with applicable provisions of Article V of this Organic Law, establish joint bodies to fulfill its Organic obligation on matters of shared competence with the Senäts.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 31, 2018 3:57:22 GMT -6
I don't think an OrgLaw amendment is really necessary to allow the Ziu to create committees. Committees have been created in the past by statute.
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