The Time of Death for Vuode and MM Act and Referendum

[Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun]

WHEREAS Vuode has not had an active legislative chamber at least during this 51^st Cosă, and
WHEREAS Vuode’s current Senator has abruptly resigned due to reasons, and
WHEREAS since there is no active legislature, there is no Vuodean Premier, and
WHEREAS only the Premier can appoint interim Senators in cases of unexpected vacancy, and
WHEREAS there is no representation in the Senäts for Vuode of any kind for about a month now, and
WHEREAS no Vuodean seems to care, and
WHEREAS although pursuant to Org.IV:10, failure to appoint by the executive of the Province can be remedied by the King or his Cunstaval appointing an interim Senator, I think there is no Vuodean interested in this job, and
WHEREAS even though Vuode is the oldest province of them all, and even though I staunchly support Talossan traditions, there comes a time where everything must change, and
WHEREAS even if this Bill were defeated because of Vuodean uproar, it should serve as a wake-up call, now

THEREFORE be it enacted by the Ziu and commended to the citizenry in a referendum that the United Provinces of Vuode and Dandenburg and the Province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic lose provincial status, and become the United Provinces of Eastern Talossa, in short Vuode-Maritiimi, Eastern Provinces, or The East. Its abbreviation shall be MV. Its Talossan name shall be Las Provinçuns Viensiçadăs da l’Oriental Talossa, in short Vuode-Maritiimi, Provinçuns Orientais, or L’Est.

TO THIS EFFECT, following passages in the Lexhatx shall be changed:

Lexh:B.12.2., which reads

12.2. Senatorial seats shall be elected at each Cosa according to the following rotation: Vuode, Atatürk, Cézembre, Florencia, Maricopa, Fiova, Maritiimi-Maxhestic, and Benito.

shall henceforth read

12.2. Senatorial seats shall be elected at each Cosă according to the following rotation: Atatürk, Cézembre, Florencia, Maricopa, Fiova, Vuode-Maritiimi, and Benito.

Lexh:E.7.3.3., which reads

7.3.3 Any citizen who happens to find himself living in the catchment area of a different province, subsequent to the creation of a new province or the alteration of catchment area boundaries, will be allowed to choose between remaining a citizen of his current province or becoming a citizen of the province whose catchment area he now lives in. The provisions of article 7.3.2 apply to this rule as if the citizen is assigned to the wrong province.(49RZ8)

7.4. ATATÜRK PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Atatürk Province: All suburbs of Milwaukee within Milwaukee County, which lie to the north and east of the City of Milwaukee; the Wisconsin Counties of Washington, Ozaukee, Sheboygan, Calumet, Manitowoc, Kewaunee, and Door; and the U.S. states of Massachussetts, Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont, and the Canadian provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland & Labrador and Nova Scotia. Overseas, the nations of Russia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Uzbekistan, Georgia, Tajikistan, Belarus, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Turkey, Northern Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Banghladesh, Maldives, Nepal, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan, South Sudan, Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi, Dem. Rep. of the Congo, Rep. of the Congo, Gabon, Sao Tomé, Cameroon and Equatorial Guinea.

7.5. BENITO PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Mussolini Province: the Wisconsin counties of Waukesha, Jefferson, Dane, Marathon, Wood, Portage, Waupaca, Waushara, Winnebago, Marquette, Green Lake, Fond du Lac, Columbia, and Dodge. Overseas, the nations of Italy, San Marino, Vatican City, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Andorra, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Hungary, Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia, Albania, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Moldova and Cyprus; plus all nations in Africa north of the Equator not listed elsewhere.

7.6. VUODE PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Vuode Province: The City of Milwaukee (WI) and the U.S. states of Connecticut, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, Missouri.

7.7. MARICOPA PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Maricopa Province: the Wisconsin counties of Polk, Barron, St. Croix, Pierce, Dunn, Chippewa, Eau Claire, Clark, Pepin, Buffalo, Trempeleau, Jackson, La Crosse, Monroe, Juneau, Adams, Vernon, Crawford, Richland, Sauk, Grant, Iowa, Lafayette, and Green; and the U.S. states of Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, Hawaii, California, Arkansas and Louisiana. Overseas, the nations of South America (except Brazil) and all of continental Central America.

7.8. FLORENCIA PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Florencia Province: the Wisconsin counties of Florence, Douglas, Bayfield, Ashland, Iron, Vilas, Burnett, Washburn, Sawyer, Rusk, Taylor, Price, Oneida, Lincoln, Langlade, Forest, Menominee, Shawano, Marinette, Oconto, Outagamie, and Brown; and the U.S. states of Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Minnesota, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, and the Canadian provinces and territories of Yukon, Northwest, Nunavut, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario.

7.9. MARITIIMI-MAXHESTIC PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Maritiimi-Maxhestic Province: All suburbs of the City of Milwaukee within Milwaukee County which lie to the south and west of the City of Milwaukee, and also the Wisconsin Counties of Racine, Kenosha, Walworth, and Rock; and the U.S. states of Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia, the District of Columbia, Delaware and Maryland. Overseas, all the nations of insular Central America and Puerto Rico.

7.10. CÉZEMBRE PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Cézembre Province: the nations of Ireland, United Kingdom, Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Monaco and any European nation not listed elsewhere.

7.11. FIOVA PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Fiova Province: the nations of Australia, New Zealand, all Oceanian nations, all Asian nations not listed elsewhere, Brazil, South Africa, Madagascar, Mauritius, the Comoros, Seychelles, Lesotho, Swaziland, Mozambique, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, Malawi, Angola, and all nations in Africa south of the Equator not listed elsewhere, and all nations of the world not included elsewhere. (51RZ4)

7.12. No Talossan citizen shall be assigned to the Territory of Péngöpäts or to any other Talossan territory.

7.13. (48RZ21)

7.14. (48RZ21)

7.15. (48RZ21)

shall be renumbered as follows, and changed to read:

7.3.3 Any citizen who happens to find himself living in the catchment area of a different province, subsequent to the creation of a new province or the alteration of catchment area boundaries, will be allowed to choose between remaining a citizen of his current province or becoming a citizen of the province whose catchment area he now lives in. The provisions of article 7.3.2 apply to this rule as if the citizen is assigned to the wrong province. (49RZ8)

7.3.3.1. ATATÜRK PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Atatürk Province: All suburbs of Milwaukee within Milwaukee County, which lie to the north and east of the City of Milwaukee; the Wisconsin Counties of Washington, Ozaukee, Sheboygan, Calumet, Manitowoc, Kewaunee, and Door; and the U.S. states of Massachussetts, Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont, and the Canadian provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland & Labrador and Nova Scotia. Overseas, the nations of Russia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Uzbekistan, Georgia, Tajikistan, Belarus, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Turkey, Northern Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Banghladesh, Maldives, Nepal, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan, South Sudan, Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi, Dem. Rep. of the Congo, Rep. of the Congo, Gabon, Sao Tomé, Cameroon and Equatorial Guinea.

7.3.3.2. BENITO PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Mussolini Province: the Wisconsin counties of Waukesha, Jefferson, Dane, Marathon, Wood, Portage, Waupaca, Waushara, Winnebago, Marquette, Green Lake, Fond du Lac, Columbia, and Dodge. Overseas, the nations of Italy, San Marino, Vatican City, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Andorra, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Hungary, Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia, Albania, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Moldova and Cyprus; plus all nations in Africa north of the Equator not listed elsewhere.

7.3.3.3. EASTERN PROVINCES. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to the United Provinces of Eastern Talossa: The City of Milwaukee (WI), and its suburbs within Milwaukee County which lie to the south and west of the City of Milwaukee, and also the Wisconsin Counties of Racine, Kenosha, Walworth, and Rock; and the U.S. states of Alabama, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia, the District of Columbia, Delaware and Maryland. Overseas, all the nations of insular Central America and Puerto Rico.

7.3.3.4. MARICOPA PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Maricopa Province: the Wisconsin counties of Polk, Barron, St. Croix, Pierce, Dunn, Chippewa, Eau Claire, Clark, Pepin, Buffalo, Trempeleau, Jackson, La Crosse, Monroe, Juneau, Adams, Vernon, Crawford, Richland, Sauk, Grant, Iowa, Lafayette, and Green; and the U.S. states of Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, Hawaii, California, Arkansas and Louisiana. Overseas, the nations of South America (except Brazil) and all of continental Central America.

7.3.3.5. FLORENCIA PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Florencia Province: the Wisconsin counties of Florence, Douglas, Bayfield, Ashland, Iron, Vilas, Burnett, Washburn, Sawyer, Rusk, Taylor, Price, Oneida, Lincoln, Langlade, Forest, Menominee, Shawano, Marinette, Oconto, Outagamie, and Brown; and the U.S. states of Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Minnesota, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, and the Canadian provinces and territories of Yukon, Northwest, Nunavut, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario.

7.3.3.6.

7.3.3.7. CÉZEMBRE PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Cézembre Province: the nations of Ireland, United Kingdom, Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Monaco and any European nation not listed elsewhere.

7.3.3.8. FIOVA PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Fiova Province: the nations of Australia, New Zealand, all Oceanian nations, all Asian nations not listed elsewhere, Brazil, South Africa, Madagascar, Mauritius, the Comoros, Seychelles, Lesotho, Swaziland, Mozambique, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, Malawi, Angola, and all nations in Africa south of the Equator not listed elsewhere, and all nations of the world not included elsewhere. (51RZ4)

7.3.3.9. No Talossan citizen shall be assigned to the Territory of Péngöpäts or to any other Talossan territory.

7.3.3.10. (48RZ21)

7.3.3.11. (48RZ21)

7.3.3.12. (48RZ21)

Lexh:F.11.2, which currently reads

11.2. The Vuode Capitol Building -- The Pavilion at Lake Park

shall read

11.2. The Eastern Provinces Capitol Building -- The Pavilion at Lake Park

Lexh:F.11.7. shall be deleted, but the numbering shall be preserved.

FURTHERMORE be it noted that pursuant to Org.V:10, this bill requires a two-thirds vote of the Senäts, and that the effects of this bill cannot be promulgated unless so approved by a majority of the participating voters of the provinces affected, pursuant to Org.XV:5.

Uréu q’estadra så:
Magniloqueu Épiqeu Ac'hlerglünä da Lhiun (Senator - MM)

[Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun]

Since MM and VD would both be up for a Senate election in the next GE, the question of Senäts representation would not need to be addressed. The Ziu could decide to hold a mid-term referendum, and by the time of the next GE, the new Eastern Provinces would choose their Senator.

The actual question is as to the pre-existing laws of either province. Would they simply become defunct, or would they continue to apply on each territory respectively until a new set of laws was agreed upon?

[Viteu Marcianüs]

As a citizen of Vuode, I stand firmly opposed to this act. The proposed act is not a unification of two provinces, but nothing short of annexation of Vuode into M-M.

Further, it is Vuode's choice, pursuant to the powers bestowed upon it by the Organic Law, to govern itself. If we so choose to have no legislature or Premier, that is our decision and should not be second guessed by the Ziu (see Org.L.XVII.5).

As to the secondary comment by the good Senator, I wish to correct him. Pursuant to Org.L.XV.5, Vuode or MM would have no say in the Senate election of either province if and until a majority of voters in both provinces approve said legislation, as this would effect the representation of a province in the Senate (see also Org.L.XVII.13). For further authority, "Provincial borders may only be changed by the Ziu with the consent of the Province or Provinces in question" (Org.L.XVII.5). To put it another way, the Ziu would need to adopt this, then the vote put to the citizens of each provinces, who would vote in the next election (we shall oppose any legislation that would present an early referendum), and only then could we merge Senators. So the issue of Senatorial representation is most pertinent.

Ultimately, Vuode is inactive because it's our decision. We should not be punished because of our decision.

[Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun]

Well, I have heard opposition from Vuode a few times over the past few Cosăs, but let us be honest; I have not seen but two Vuodeans active in the past few weeks. And I doubt that it should change.

And you will undoubtedly agree that an annexation would absorb one entity into the other. However, the bill clearly states that both provinces will merge into a new Province. While the activity levels within MM do not warrant such an action, I found it unfair for us to annex Vuode -- even if we, as the most superior province in the Realm, had every right and moreover the responsibility to do so!

[Viteu Marcianüs]

So the argument advanced by the good Senator can be reduced to: if a province doesn't meet his activity requirements, it will be subject to annexiation... Nay, "merger" with M-M.

Yes, we agree that one is being absorbed into the other. Regardless of what type of word games the Good Senator wished to play with his proposed legislation, a trough by any other name is but a trough. This is annexiation and breaches our sovereign rights under the Org Law to determine the government (or lack thereof) Vuodians wish to have. M-M has no responsibility to annex any province it deems insufficiently active, and the very notions offends Vuodian values.

[Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun]

Jan 15, 2018 11:44:13 GMT -6 Viteu Marcianüs said:

So the argument advanced by the good Senator can be reduced to: if a province doesn't meet his activity requirements, it will be subject to annexiation... Nay, "merger" with M-M.

Yes, we agree that one is being absorbed into the other. Regardless of what type of word games the Good Senator wished to play with his proposed legislation, a trough by any other name is but a trough. This is annexiation and breaches our sovereign rights under the Org Law to determine the government (or lack thereof) Vuodians wish to have. M-M has no responsibility to annex any province it deems insufficiently active, and the very notions offends Vuodian values.

Your rights are not breached, because simply proposing a bill does not breach any rights. If that were so, we could all just pack up and leave. If you are going to discuss this without being overly dramatic, I welcome and appreciate it. Otherwise, please do not make this into a Constitutional Issue.

Talossa is not a Federation; provinces do not derive their autonomy from a historical independence. Rather, like France, Provinces have been drawn up by the state to simplify the means of governance. If this simplification, however, has become inadequate, then it should be revisited and adapted. The Organic Law does not stipulate, you will find, that changes in provincial borders must be initiated by the provinces themselves; it only provides for the protection of the respective inhabitants, for if a majority of an affected province does not accept the changes proposed, they will not go forward. And this circumstance has been expressly stated in this bill.

[Viteu Marcianüs]

I did not claim Talossa is a federation. But the Org Law does incorporate some aspects of a federalism . It recognized the autonomy of a province to self determination, "Provinces are Cantons (or groups thereof) which are self-governing and autonomous" (Org.L.XVII.5). Further, "All powers not vested in the Kingdom by this Organic Law shall be vested exclusively in the Provinces" (Org.L.VII.8). So whole

The Ziu, like the provinces, derives it's authority from the Org. Law. In much the same way that Germany and the US mutually derive the powers of their federal governments and states from either the Basic Law or US Constitution. While we are not a Federation, we aren't exactly a system of devolution either. We are unique. In any event, you are correct to say that the province facing prospective annexiation need not initiate the act doing do, but that does not, somehow, negate that the proposal is inherently speaking to annexiation. As to a breach of rights, my wording was unclear - passing such an act, I argue, would be a breach of rights. Also, the argument advanced that this will not impact Senate elections, and therefore the issue need not be addressed, for reasons previously stated, implies a breach of Organic rights. You have not explained how we would pass this, receive consent, and then vote by the next election. You have not cited organic authority for this. And you are not engaging in a good faith discussion with Vuode, in any fashion, to determine if we even want this.

Senator, you don't get to determine the requisite level of activity to maintain the status of province, and it is not the of MM, as you insulting advance in support of your bill, to be burdened by annexing Vuode due to her chosen inactivity.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Jan 15, 2018 12:30:33 GMT -6 Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun said:

If you are going to discuss this without being overly dramatic,

New word for the TalEnglish lexicon:

Overly dramatic, adj. Disagreeing with Epic.

[Eðo Grischun]

So, Org:XVII:Sec.1 tells us that the provinces may redraw their borders dependant on consent from the Ziu. But, then in Org:XVII:Sec.5 we are told the Ziu may redraw the borders dependant on consent from the provinces. So, which is right?

We are also told from OrgLaw that Provinces are autonomous and self-governing. My take on this means that the Ziu can never disband a provincial assembly, nor can the Ziu tell a provincial assembly on how to govern or force a provincial assembly to enact or repeal any provincial law. It does not mean, though, that 'all the power' lies with the Provinces nor that we are essentially Federal. (I note, though, that the Organic Law does contain the phrases 'federal government' and 'federal legislation' within it - so, hey ho).

I think that V is right and wrong when he says 'we aren't exactly a system of devolution either'. We know what he means - The Provinces don't have their powers granted to them by the grace of the Ziu. HOWEVER! The provincial powers have been devolved to them - by the Organic Law. ie: "All powers not vested in the Kingdom by this Organic Law" (or in other words, all powers not devolved to the Kingdom) "shall be vested exclusively in the Provinces".

I guess we could sum our systems up as some form of 'Constitutional Devolution'. The Organic Law is supreme and all of everything is devolved to it by the words of that constitution. The Kings powers are devolved to him by the Organic Law, as are the powers and functions of the Ziu, as are the nature and workings of the provinces. Even our 'inalienable rights' are only so because the Organic Law says so.

We don't really have a top-down system of governance anywhere in the Kingdom. The two houses of the Ziu are only upper and lower by name, but they are designed to work in tandem with one another as opposed to against each other or as one better or more powerful than the other. The Crown and the Parliament are designed to operate side-by-side as a check on each others powers. It seems to be the same when it comes to Provincial vs National power structure: The Ziu can't say boo without the Province saying so, and vice versa for the provinces themselves in all instances where the Organic Law specifies, but in all instances where the Organic Law does not specify something or other on a particular aspect, then it (the OrgLaw) has devolved the power to the provinces.

In this case, the Organic Law has made specific decrees:

1) The Ziu can't change the borders without Provincial consent. So, yeah, the proposed boundary changes require local ratification - but, no real biggie here.

2) Provinces are self-governing and autonomous. The Ziu simply does not have the power to disband any provincial assembly nor can the Ziu force them to merge. I don't think the Ziu can enact a law that revokes provincial status either.

3) "No new province shall be constituted after the adoption of this Organic Law unless said proposed province shall contain within it a working constitution with an elected government and a citizenry comprising at least ten persons."
- This becomes a chicken and egg argument, but I take it to mean that for a United Province of East Talossa to exist then such a province must have had a constitution ratified by its citizenry first and somehow formed a local provincial assembly (albeit, a constitution-in-waiting and an assembly-in-waiting).


So, to conclude, I think this proposed bill is inOrganic as the Ziu doesn't have the power to enact all the proposals within it. This needs to be kicked back to the provinces. MM and VD need to come together first, ratify a new constitution and elect a local government-in-waiting and then come to the Ziu for consent to redraw the provincial borders.

(Sorry, if this all reads a bit disjointed - I don't have a lot of time to spit this all out. If clarification is needed on any particular point please just ask).

[Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h]

I would vote against this, and the precedent set by Fiôvâ's creation as well as V's arguments against this proposal.

Fiôvâ exists in part because Maricopa and M-M graciously agreed to part with significant portions of their territory. If either province had balked, that would have been the end of it.

Vuode should be given the same choice, and it has already made the choice to not have a functioning government. I'm with V on this.

If, however, we need to change the catchment areas for M-M and Vuode to help things along in the latter's life, I would not be against that, in principle.

GV

[Vitxalmour Conductour]

Jan 16, 2018 14:04:02 GMT -6 Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h said:

If, however, we need to change the catchment areas for M-M and Vuode to help things along in the latter's life, I would not be against that, in principle.

Changing Vuode's catchment area? That's a great idea!

...oh wait. To help them. Nevermind.