Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Nov 14, 2017 12:55:54 GMT -6
To be honest, I'm a bit shocked that the 2007 Arestada wasn't just an orthographical reform, but also a phonological one. I don't know but usually vowels aren't just abolished like that; as in, it was wrong to simply abolish phonemic å and ë without a good justification (especially if you consider that Talossan does have an a : å minimal pair, so no, theyre not allophones of each other). It's been confirmed by now that the complete removal and replacement of î in all positions was a mistake and a result of miscommunication (only î followed by m or n was supposed to be merged with i), so I wouldn't be opposed to rectifying that mistake. You have to keep in mind that the 2007 Arestada grew out of reforms that were proposed in the context of similar proposals made by Sir Tomás in 2005. He had proposed eliminating å and û on the Republic's language forum (along with î, although it later turned out that his proposal along those lines was phrased somewhat more broadly than he intended). It appeared that the Republican Ladintschen had embraced those proposals, so the 2007 Arestada included those non-orthographical reforms that we thought would be broadly acceptable on both sides of the "Vuode Line" and that also made the general scheme of reliably marking all cases of irregular stress practicable (which would not have been the case had any of the circumflexed vowels or ë been retained). I can't remember whether Sir Tomás proposed anything regarding ë, but we couldn't find any minimal pairs for ë and it appeared to mostly appear in phonologically-conditioned contexts. The one thing I insist on is a stress rule. The easier, the better. Do you have any thoughts on the current stress rule? Regarding ð, if -- hypothetically -- it'd turn out that the sequence /nd/ is always [nð], would you be opposed to respelling words like ívenðo with a D? That's essentially what the CUG did with rð and ðr (sometime prior to the 2007 Arestada). They realised that sequences /rd/ and /dr/ are always pronounced with [ð], so there was no reason not to respell ð in those contexts as d. Hmmm. Actually, you know what would be cute and symmetrical? Bring back ë, and bring back î but spell it ï. That way we have a 10-vowel, symmetrical dotted-undotted system! Hool and I discussed that idea at some point, too. It would be very tidy, but wouldn't really do anything to retain pre-2007 aesthetics. And what would you do about the current (and pre-2007) use of ï to mark diaeresis? Out of time now, I'll have to catch up on page 2 of this thread later!
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
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Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 14, 2017 16:01:03 GMT -6
Hmmm. Actually, you know what would be cute and symmetrical? Bring back ë, and bring back î but spell it ï. That way we have a 10-vowel, symmetrical dotted-undotted system! Hool and I discussed that idea at some point, too. It would be very tidy, but wouldn't really do anything to retain pre-2007 aesthetics. And what would you do about the current (and pre-2007) use of ï to mark diaeresis?[/quote] What does German do to mark diaeresis? I'm pretty sure, though Epic could tell me better, that Turkish uses the apostrophe.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Nov 14, 2017 16:06:08 GMT -6
What does German do to mark diaeresis? I'm pretty sure, though Epic could tell me better, that Turkish uses the apostrophe. No, neither German, nor Turkish, mark two adjacent nucleic vowels. As for Turkish, the language has no diphthongs, and therefore any two adjacent vowels are interpreted as constituting two separate syllables. In the case of German, good luck if that <ie> turns out to be two syllables, after all!
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 16, 2017 16:23:47 GMT -6
Okay. So we're back to square 1, it seems. The question remains as to whether:
1) the CÚG has any interest in a new reform to take into consideration the stubborn Reviênsadéirs and others who prefer to use pre-2007 orthography; 2) SIGN has an alternative Arestadâ to propose.
We can perhaps start by clarifying: does the current CÚG orthography authorise the use of the breve to mark final -a in feminine noun/adjectives?
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Nov 16, 2017 16:37:57 GMT -6
The SIGN declares this Arestada, el Prüma Arestada:
- La SIGN adopts the official CÚG orthography - In addition, it adopts the a-with-breve to mark final a in feminine nouns and adjectives
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Nov 16, 2017 16:44:29 GMT -6
The SIGN declares this Arestada, el Prüma Arestada: - La SIGN adopts the official CÚG orthography - In addition, it adopts the a-with-breve to mark final a in feminine nouns and adjectives You cannot do that. We held no vote, and I am absolutely not supporting any Arestadă, nor adopting it. Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN, the CÚG, to my knowledge, does currently accept the A breve as such a marker.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Nov 16, 2017 16:54:51 GMT -6
The SIGN declares this Arestada, el Prüma Arestada: - La SIGN adopts the official CÚG orthography - In addition, it adopts the a-with-breve to mark final a in feminine nouns and adjectives You cannot do that. We held no vote, and I am absolutely not supporting any Arestadă, nor adopting it. Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN , the CÚG, to my knowledge, does currently accept the A breve as such a marker. We need an orthography to begin with. And that's ballsy to say for someone who, as far as making la SIGN happen, has done almost nothing to ensure that the workings are in place. BTW, here's the new website: jackdwalker2001.wixsite.com/societaIt still needs a lot of work, but it's good enough as a start, I think.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Nov 16, 2017 18:16:55 GMT -6
You cannot do that. We held no vote, and I am absolutely not supporting any Arestadă, nor adopting it. Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN , the CÚG, to my knowledge, does currently accept the A breve as such a marker. We need an orthography to begin with. And that's ballsy to say for someone who, as far as making la SIGN happen, has done almost nothing to ensure that the workings are in place. BTW, here's the new website: jackdwalker2001.wixsite.com/societaIt still needs a lot of work, but it's good enough as a start, I think. First of all, stuff your attitude. And most importantly, you cannot just put forth decisions unilaterally for the whole SIGN – no matter how active we are.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 16, 2017 18:52:04 GMT -6
Ha ha, if SIGN's difference from CÚG is going to be the difference between doing nothing and doing nothing + unilateral executive Arestadas, maybe this was a bad idea
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Nov 16, 2017 19:18:16 GMT -6
We need an orthography to begin with. And that's ballsy to say for someone who, as far as making la SIGN happen, has done almost nothing to ensure that the workings are in place. BTW, here's the new website: jackdwalker2001.wixsite.com/societaIt still needs a lot of work, but it's good enough as a start, I think. First of all, stuff your attitude. And most importantly, you cannot just put forth decisions unilaterally for the whole SIGN – no matter how active we are. OK, how about this: let’s put together the respective committees, and then stick that proposal into the Orthography Committee for a vote?
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Nov 16, 2017 21:59:15 GMT -6
Ha ha, if SIGN's difference from CÚG is going to be the difference between doing nothing and doing nothing + unilateral executive Arestadas, maybe this was a bad idea I'm perfectly happy to have changes approved by the predefined committees, but they need to exist in the first place.
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Nov 17, 2017 2:15:56 GMT -6
I clicked "Read more" in History and had fun :) Nice initiative though.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Nov 21, 2017 6:10:49 GMT -6
We can perhaps start by clarifying: does the current CÚG orthography authorise the use of the breve to mark final -a in feminine noun/adjectives? It does! That was part of the 2012 Arestada (which is not yet on the CÚG web site due to my own delinquency). The Arestada noted that the breve may be omitted, or a circumflex used in its place, when its use is inconvenient or impractical. I used the breve in the Prüms Päçen handout in accordance with A2012.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 21, 2017 13:40:25 GMT -6
We can perhaps start by clarifying: does the current CÚG orthography authorise the use of the breve to mark final -a in feminine noun/adjectives? It does! That was part of the 2012 Arestada (which is not yet on the CÚG web site due to my own delinquency). The Arestada noted that the breve may be omitted, or a circumflex used in its place, when its use is inconvenient or impractical. I used the breve in the Prüms Päçen handout in accordance with A2012. Oh good. So what else bugs me about post-2007 orthography? - the endings of infinitives; - the loss of ë and î - the loss of -ească as the feminine of -esc and -escù I can learn to live with the first two but I would like to fight a rearguard action for the latter. Can I also ask whether "så" has just become "sa", and if so, can we accent it, like "sá"? Talossan's cousin language, French, often puts stress marks on monosyllables to distinguish homophones.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Nov 21, 2017 16:25:07 GMT -6
It does! That was part of the 2012 Arestada (which is not yet on the CÚG web site due to my own delinquency). The Arestada noted that the breve may be omitted, or a circumflex used in its place, when its use is inconvenient or impractical. I used the breve in the Prüms Päçen handout in accordance with A2012. Oh good. So what else bugs me about post-2007 orthography? - the endings of infinitives; - the loss of ë and î - the loss of -ească as the feminine of -esc and -escù I can learn to live with the first two but I would like to fight a rearguard action for the latter. Can I also ask whether "så" has just become "sa", and if so, can we accent it, like "sá"? Talossan's cousin language, French, often puts stress marks on monosyllables to distinguish homophones. I think -ească is still a thing. No, please keep/revive the å.
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