Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 7, 2017 15:23:26 GMT -6
Estimadâs és estimats Ladîntschen: As Minister of Culture I have set as a goal for this term to facilitate the unification of the Talossan-speaking community over a single orthography. I will require all the help of both Talossan-language speaker groups - CÚG and SIGN - in this effort. At the outset I would like to say that I do not foresee myself playing an active role in these discussions. Basically, I learned Talossan in pre-2005 spelling and I don't want it to change at all. But it seems unanimous, from the actually-existing community of Ladîntschen, that that ship has sailed. My role in these discussions, I foresee as being basically to make sure that the discussions happen, that a consensus is formed and formalized before the next election. I will also be in Facebook contact with Tomás Gariçéir, in the event that he wishes to participate. I thus ask the Ladîntsch Naziunál, Sir C. M. Siervicül, and the leader of SIGN, Iac Marscheir, to give opening statements on this matte.r
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Nov 7, 2017 16:16:40 GMT -6
I am, honesrly, quite happy with the current orthography. It describes the language quite well, and eliminates allophones, while also being able to distinguish between short and long vowels based on prescribed rules.
Now, I’m open to changes so long as the vowel system doesn’t change radically. As in, no adding new/old vowels that are rather difficult to distinguish between. And keep ð. It helps with importing words like ívenðo and stöð.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Nov 7, 2017 16:30:33 GMT -6
I'd also like to take a moment to admit that, despite my slightly more extensive than average study of Talossan, my knowledge does not even begin to approach that of Sir Cresti and, as such, my statements and requests may be at times less informed than his.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 7, 2017 16:35:53 GMT -6
I am, honesrly, quite happy with the current orthography. It describes the language quite well, and eliminates allophones, while also being able to distinguish between short and long vowels based on prescribed rules. Now, I’m open to changes so long as the vowel system doesn’t change radically. As in, no adding new/old vowels that are rather difficult to distinguish between. And keep ð. It helps with importing words like ívenðo and stöð. Wait. If you're happy with the current orthography... is it only me and pre-2005 types like Sir Tomás who have an issue?
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Nov 7, 2017 16:56:27 GMT -6
Well, I'm open to changes. I almost certain there's some imperfection in the orthography that I've glossed over up till now. Let's see what Sir Cresti has to say.
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on Nov 9, 2017 4:33:57 GMT -6
I just want there to be a unification of some sort. The more people it serves, the better. To be honest, I'm a bit shocked that the 2007 Arestada wasn't just an orthographical reform, but also a phonological one. I don't know but usually vowels aren't just abolished like that; as in, it was wrong to simply abolish phonemic å and ë without a good justification (especially if you consider that Talossan does have an a : å minimal pair, so no, theyre not allophones of each other). It's been confirmed by now that the complete removal and replacement of î in all positions was a mistake and a result of miscommunication (only î followed by m or n was supposed to be merged with i), so I wouldn't be opposed to rectifying that mistake. The one thing I insist on is a stress rule. The easier, the better.
For the rest of this post, I'd like to adress some things I noticed in Iac's post: and eliminates allophones, while also being able to distinguish between short and long vowels based on prescribed rules. Firstly, I don't know what you're trying to say with "eliminates allophones". Secondly, Talossan has no phonemic vowel length and thus no rules for writing them; I'd like to know where you got that info from. Now, I’m open to changes so long as the vowel system doesn’t change radically. As in, no adding new/old vowels that are rather difficult to distinguish between. And keep ð. It helps with importing words like ívenðo and stöð. What is and isn't difficult to distinguish is entirely subjective (also see above for my comment about vowels). Regarding ð, if -- hypothetically -- it'd turn out that the sequence /nd/ is always [nð], would you be opposed to respelling words like ívenðo with a D?
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Nov 9, 2017 7:15:37 GMT -6
and eliminates allophones, while also being able to distinguish between short and long vowels based on prescribed rules. Firstly, I don't know what you're trying to say with "eliminates allophones". Secondly, Talossan has no phonemic vowel length and thus no rules for writing them; I'd like to know where you got that info from. Now, I’m open to changes so long as the vowel system doesn’t change radically. As in, no adding new/old vowels that are rather difficult to distinguish between. And keep ð. It helps with importing words like ívenðo and stöð. What is and isn't difficult to distinguish is entirely subjective (also see above for my comment about vowels). Regarding ð, if -- hypothetically -- it'd turn out that the sequence /nd/ is always [nð], would you be opposed to respelling words like ívenðo with a D? Firstly, I was saying "eliminates allophones" as in "eliminates similar-sounding vocalics". The current Talossan vowel system has 8 vowels. There five main domains of vocalics: ah, eh, ee, oh, and oo. The vowel system contains the five "base" vowels, a, e, i, o and u, plus ä, which sounds completely different from a due to its different positioning in the mouth, ö, which is distinguished from e by rounding, and ü, which is distinguished from i by rounding as well. Secondly, Talossan, as you correctly pointed out, doesn't have phonemic vowel length. But it does have something I term "phonetic vowel length." In English, when young children are taught phonetics, they're often told about "long" and "short" vowels. I was merely recycling the term here. "Long" vowels are stressed ones and "short" vowels are unstressed ones. What is and isn't difficult distinguish depends on tongue placement relative to other vowels. Î is very similar to i. Î is the close central unrounded vowel. I is the close front unrounded vowel. They're pronounced in nearly the same place. Therefore they sound similar. Now, in slow speech, they may sound different, but think about trying to distinguish between î and i in rapid speech? Besides, I'm willing to say that î is probably the most difficult vowel sound I've ever tried to say. The ability to understand the language hasn't been marred by the absence of î. I ask that it remain unrestored to the language, whatever the circumstances of its banishment in the first place. As to your proposal on ð, I think it's a good compromise between keeping it where it is and deleting it entirely.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Nov 9, 2017 7:59:10 GMT -6
I would also suggest not bringing å (a with the little circle) back to the language. Distinguishing between it and o would be a pain because, once again, they're created in very similar places.
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on Nov 9, 2017 11:44:38 GMT -6
Firstly, I was saying "eliminates allophones" as in "eliminates similar-sounding vocalics". That's not how the term works.See, I have huge problems distinguishing ä /æ/ and e /ɛ/ (maybe because German lacks /æ/), and to me, they sound almost identical. On the other hand, i /i/ and î /ɨ/ sound totally different (my guess is that Portuguese has both, and I've been exposed to it since I'm a toddler)! Therefore, I reject your statement that "What is and isn't difficult distinguish depends on tongue placement relative to other vowels" -- ä and e are closer together than i and î, for God's sake! Unfortunate, but I could (and did just now) say the same exact thing about ä. So unless you also want to get rid of /æ/, this point is irrelevant. (EDIT: Needless to say, the same goes for å /ɒ/) That's also not how the term works. It'd mean that Talossan does feature vowels that are longer than others, but that this vowel length isnt used to distinguish between words. Aside from the fact that English "long" vowels (most of which aren't long but diphthongs) can appear in unstressed syllables and vice versa, this is just unnecessary. Why not say "phonemic stress" and call stressed vowels what they are? This wasn't a proposal, it was merely hypothetical. My proposal in general is to keep the orthography as phone mic as possible while it still looking "Talossan". This would include replacing ð with d (and vice versa (and also reintroducing the abolished vowels I guess, depending on if they're still pronounced by Ladintschen and I know at least one who does)) where necessary.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Nov 9, 2017 12:44:26 GMT -6
I'm just going to reiterate my opinion.
I'm fine with the current orthography. I believe it is what best represents the language. I do not believe it should be restored to a previous Arestada, and I do not feel it needs to be revised.
Perhaps I feel this way because the current orthography is the same as the one I started learning Talossan with. If the will of the Ladintschen is not in line with my wishes, I suppose I'll have to deal with that. Do as you will.
Sa viva el glheþ Talossan!
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Nov 9, 2017 20:43:07 GMT -6
I will comment after having had some sleep! But I like î, and, Marcel, my variety of German clearly distinguishes <ä> and <e>, but not in the same pattern that Hochdeutsch does.
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Nov 10, 2017 11:09:01 GMT -6
I think some of the Shoutbox is worth quoting here:
Iac Marscheir: In all honesty, guys, if the letter Î were to return to the language, I'd probably never study Talossan again, and not just 'cause I'm a "sore loser" or anything. yesterday at 13:55
Alèxandreu Soleighlfred: b-but.. we need to stay strong together... (says the person who speaks azül rather than talossan) 22 hours ago
Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun: I am sorry, but I, too, am for the Letter î. 14 hours ago
Iac Marscheir: Okay, how about this: lay out exactly how you (pre-2007ers) would use the î. It's clear that I'm outvoted. I'll at least look at how it'd be used. 2 hours ago
Ián Tamorán S.H.: A letter is a letter is a letter... and it represents (amongst other things) a sound. Now, if you speak Russian, then the sound for î is one you know how to say. Similarly, if you are musical, or good at mimicry, then you will be able to use this sound... about an hour ago x
Ián Tamorán S.H.: ...if not, then you will be in the position as those who cannot use (or even hear) a "soft" L as opposed to a "hard" L. For those of you that speak French, the letter "P" in English is aspirated, but not in French. Can you hear the difference? See.... about an hour ago x
Ián Tamorán S.H.: ...what I mean? about an hour ago x
Alèxandreu Soleighlfred: actually, one of Russian ways to laugh is to just say "îîîîîîîîîî!" 32 minutes ago
Alèxandreu Soleighlfred: Ián, I speak un peu de Français but I m not able to hear the difference between french and english P. What am I doing wrong 29 minutes ago
Ián Tamorán S.H.: You are doing nothing wrong - and that's part of the point. If you cannot *hear* the difference, then you cannot *make* the difference. I lived in France for a few years, so for me it's "easy" - but my children think I'm mad! 2 minutes ago x
Ián Tamorán S.H.: In English we say "P(h)ear" (that fruit which is not an apple), but in French they say "Pear" ... hmmm "Bear" but a non-voiced B ... hmmm, maybe I shouldn't speak about my father in French.
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Nov 10, 2017 11:49:57 GMT -6
Orthography is a thorny issue. British English and American English use many different spellings, and many different word/thing/thought relationships - but they are still mutually comprehensible (mostly).
Looking at sounds, I always advise people in business to answer the phone with "Good morning. XYZ company here", rather than "XYZ company here. Good morning", because the initial "Good morning" gives the listener enough time to (automatically) make the adjustment to hearing all the subsequent vowel sounds as they are said in the speaker's (the person who answers) accent. If you say "XYZ company here. Good morning" then the listener does not have that (brief) opportunity, and the first question you get asked is - frequently - "Is that the XYZ company?", because the caller hasn't had enough time (which is less than a second) to adjust to the accent of the person answering.
Aside, to be said in an Australian accent: "You think a bison is a ferocious animal: to me it's what I wash my hands in."
With spelling you don't have the same set of problems as with listening. I, personally, like there being an orthographical diversity - provided that comprehension is not impeded. "Oh, how delightful - they have used å and î and ð: how beautifully traditionalist"... "Oh, gosh - they don't use ð and å: how frantically modern!". Dictionaries can contain both (or more) spellings, just as English dictionaries already do.
Those of you who read what I write will have noted that I use British spelling; those of you who have heard me speak may have noted that my vowel sounds are different from those used in the USA, New Zealand, India - and, of course, Wales, Scotland, Italy <insert long list of non-Talossan countries here>. But despite those marked personal differences between my writing and speaking and yours, I am still (I hope!) able to be understood. We have not just the word dialect, which is that which is spoken by a sub-group of people, but the word idiolect, which is that which is spoken by just one individual - that person's own, personal idiom. And we will never - we never can - have total agreement between our idiolects in English, Italian, Swedish, French - or Talossan
So may it be in Talossan: that each who speaks and writes have the freedom so to use such syntax and spelling as best befits his circumstance and wishes.
...and if you found that last sentence difficult, my apologies... but I like the subjunctive mood and pre-1900 word ordering - personal taste. My idiolect.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 10, 2017 12:28:30 GMT -6
Look, guys, for me, it just seems wrong to write a feminine noun ending in "a" without the circumflex on the A, or "për" without the diaresis. It just seems wrong that "velarë" is now spelled "velarh". This is not the Talossan that I fell in love with in 1997. When the 2007 Arestadâ came out, Tomás refused to accept it, mentioning that the CÚG had taken all that was quirky and unique about the language out. That is the feeling that we Oldspellers have.
Marcial is right that the 2007 Arestadâ actually cut vowels from the language as well as spellings, which they would never had done if they had taken heed of Republican thoughts on the matter. The one eliminated vowel from the old orthography I don't miss is û. I remember talking to Tomás and realising that pût (he/she/it can) was pronounced the same as English "putt". Also, I don't think we needed ø as well as ö. But ë (schwa) is DEFINITELY a vowel. And you talk to any Turkish person and ask them if there's a difference between dotted and undotted "i". That's pretty much the same as the old i/î distinction.
Hmmm. Actually, you know what would be cute and symmetrical? Bring back ë, and bring back î but spell it ï. That way we have a 10-vowel, symmetrical dotted-undotted system!
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Nov 10, 2017 12:29:58 GMT -6
For some reason that last sentence reminded me of Toki Pona. It has this construct "[to be]: that bla bla bla" as pretty much the only way to form complex sentenses.
I want to personally suggest that we don't freak out around orthography. Language is an instrument of common usage, there's always going to be compromise. Change it, try stuff, let it evolve and you'll see what sticks and what doesn't. To lose active contributors because of introduction of one letter is a luxury El Glheþ community cannot effort I suppose.
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