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Post by Þon Txoteu É. Davinescu on Mar 23, 2017 19:29:28 GMT -6
WHEREAS the latest version of the El Lexhatx has been plagued with multiple “cut-and-paste” issues; and
WHEREAS these kind of issues have gone uncorrected for some time; and
WHEREAS clarity in organization and structure can make life easier for all public servants of Talossa; and
WHEREAS the function of the Interior Ministry is a very important Ministry of our great nation;
BE IT ENACTED by the King, Cosâ and Senäts of Talossa in Ziu assembled Title D, Section 2, Sub-Section 3 and attached Sub-Sub-Sections, be modified for the purpose of renaming positions and clarifying duties within the Interior Ministry, updating the law to appropriately reflect the position, structure and authority of those that serve within it as follows:
2.3 The Interior Minister, who shall combine the roles of Defence and Immigration Minister as set forth in Organic Law XII.4 and XII.5, and shall head the following Bureaus Departments. The Minister may appoint Deputy Ministers Secretaries to be in charge of each Büreu Department, and the Civil Service Commission may appoint Permanent Secretaries to each Büreu assist in the appointment of these Secretaries, to work under the direction of the Minister.
a) El Büreu dels Afáes Înphätseschti Talossan modified to match (Bureau Department of Home Affairs) which shall be responsible for the order and well-being of the homeland and its environs. This Bureau Department shall provide a public presence in or near the Greater Talossan Area, shall assist in the organization of Living Cosâs, shall provide governmental assistance to the organizers of an annual TalossaFest celebration, and to all citizens making the Haxh, and shall take care to guide the Seneschal and other ministers in ever maintaining the connection and bond of Talossans worldwide to their homeland. (47RZ8)
b) The Büreu dels Afáes Cestoûreschti (Bureau of Cestour Affairs), led by the 'Piaçatéir Naziunál' and assisted by bureaucrats known as C'huescoûrs (or "Binkies"), who shall see to it that the interests of Cestours within the homeland receive the proper attention of the government. (47RZ8)
d b) El Büreu dàl Înmigraziun Talossan modified to match (the Bureau Department of Immigration), which shall be responsible for the execution of the nation's laws appertaining to immigration of new citizens into the realm. This Ministry Department shall work closely with the Chancery and its Bureau of the Census to ensure that all incoming citizens are properly processed through immigration as provided by law. (47RZ8)
c) El Büreu dal Zefençù Talossan modified to match (Ministry Department of Defence), which shall marshal and provide the Invincible Moral Support of the nation to the good and right side of any international conflict, as determined by the government, conveying to the combatants our proud "we would stand with you, but it's safer to stand behind you" stance. (47RZ8)
c) i) No action of the Minister or the Bureau Department of Defence shall infringe on the King's organic role as Leader of the Armed Forces. (47RZ8)
2.3.1. The Interior Minister shall also be the liaison between the Kingdom Government and the provincial governments. (47RZ8)
2.4. The Interior Minister Secretary of Defence, heading the Department of Defence, Ministry of Interior, who shall command the armed forces of the Kingdom during peacetime and during times of declared war, subservient in these duties only to the King in his majesty's organic role as Leader of the Armed Forces. During periods of war, the Interior Minister Secretary of Defence shall be elevated to Cabinet-Level for the duration of the crisis and is to be referred to as "War Minister" until such time as the threat to the Kingdom has passed, and at said time will revert back to Secretary-Level. The Ministrà dal Interior (Ministry of Interior) shall also marshal and provide the Invincible Moral Support of the nation to the good and right side of any international conflict, as determined by the government, conveying to the combatants our proud "we would stand with you, but it's safer to stand behind you" stance.
New titles & Abbreviations for the new Department Secretaries would be as follows;
Secretary of Defence (SecDef)
Secretary of Immigration (SecImm)
Secretary of Home Affairs (SecHA)
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Post by Þon Txoteu É. Davinescu on Mar 29, 2017 12:32:46 GMT -6
Anybody have any thoughts so far?
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Mar 29, 2017 13:28:35 GMT -6
The changes you made are still a little unclear
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Mar 30, 2017 6:47:46 GMT -6
I don't understand the reason for changing bureaus to departments. Also, the revised 2.3 would seem to create an inconsistency with how the Civil Service works per Lexh. C.1.7. Personally, I would prefer to reinstate Immigration, Home Affairs, and Defence as full cabinet-level ministries and abolish the Ministry of Interior as an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Mar 30, 2017 14:18:17 GMT -6
I don't understand the reason for changing bureaus to departments. Also, the revised 2.3 would seem to create an inconsistency with how the Civil Service works per Lexh. C.1.7. Personally, I would prefer to reinstate Immigration, Home Affairs, and Defence as full cabinet-level ministries and abolish the Ministry of Interior as an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. I don't think that enough happens in Home Affairs and Defence to warrant them being Cabinet-level ministries, unless of course you believe that putting a full-time Minister in those portfolios would increase activity in those areas.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Mar 30, 2017 15:27:21 GMT -6
I don't think that enough happens in Home Affairs and Defence to warrant them being Cabinet-level ministries, unless of course you believe that putting a full-time Minister in those portfolios would increase activity in those areas. I'm approaching the issue from a different angle. My thinking is that Immigration deserves to be a cabinet-level ministry, because MinImm is one of the most important positions, with one of the heaviest and most consistent workloads, in Talossa. As such, I believe it deserves the dignity of full cabinet status. Your point about Home Affairs and Defence is fair, but similarly there isn't much for Interior qua Interior to do other than provide a notional layer of oversight above the other positions. Interior can always handle one or both of those other positions him or herself, but then you might as well simply give a single minister multiple portfolios as Minister of Home Affairs and Defence. But for me the most important thing is restoring the status of Immigration, and the rest follows from that.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Mar 30, 2017 15:35:26 GMT -6
Here is an idea for a restructure:
Currently:
-Interior -Immigration -Home -Defence
Proposed:
-Immigration -Interior
This way, the subministries of Defence and Home are abolished and there is no need to get Deputy Ministers to fill them (the Interior Minister is directly responsible for duties relating to defense and home affairs).
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Mar 30, 2017 15:50:49 GMT -6
Here is an idea for a restructure: Currently: -Interior -Immigration -Home -Defence Proposed: -Immigration -Interior This way, the subministries of Defence and Home are abolished and there is no need to get Deputy Ministers to fill them (the Interior Minister is directly responsible for duties relating to defense and home affairs). Hmm, maybe. Or (basically the same thing with a slight shift in nomenclature) we could just use the old title of Home Affairs and recognise security issues as falling within its jurisdiction. The Admiral would report directly to the Minister of Home Affairs. Interestingly, in the Cayman Islands it is the Ministry of Home Affairs that is responsible for "the country's national security and public safety."
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Mar 30, 2017 15:59:57 GMT -6
I don't currently have an opinion on this bill, but I disagree with taking Immigration out of Interior. Cabinet ministers are political jobs by nature (which is one reason we have a Civil Service to fill jobs under cabinet level), and the position of Deputy Minister of Immigration (or Secretary of Immigration if you'd prefer) should be apolitical. I would have no problem with filling the position itself by the Civil Service, because while the job may be demanding, there aren't any policy issues that one would have in another position.
Even using Home Affairs as an example, there may be someone coming in who wants to have a policy to expand Talossa's presence in Milwaukee by papering the town with flyers from a plane. The individual overseeing Defence may want to institute a government policy to rapidly expand the Navy due to a growing threat from our Neighbor to the North. But Immigration? There is no big government project that Immigration would potentially oversee, except perhaps to try and recruit more people to the NCC (which would be a job for the head of the NCC, not the Dep. Min. of Immigration). In addition, the day in and day out demands of the position may prohibit an Immigration Minister from actively participating in a big Cabinet project as would be expected of him in a Cabinet level position.
An Interior Minister (or Ministry) allows Immigration to function on a largely apolitical and autonomous basis, and allows Home Affairs and Defence to function according to their traditional levels of activity (which is to say, not at all) without compromising the overall integrity of the Cabinet.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
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Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Mar 30, 2017 18:45:44 GMT -6
I don't understand the reason for changing bureaus to departments. Also, the revised 2.3 would seem to create an inconsistency with how the Civil Service works per Lexh. C.1.7. Personally, I would prefer to reinstate Immigration, Home Affairs, and Defence as full cabinet-level ministries and abolish the Ministry of Interior as an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. I don't think that enough happens in Home Affairs and Defence to warrant them being Cabinet-level ministries, unless of course you believe that putting a full-time Minister in those portfolios would increase activity in those areas. Frankly, Home Affairs and Defence are nothing but sinecures which a Seneschál can give out as trinkets to buy Cosâ votes. There is no justification for having them Constitutionally enshrined in the first place and my preferred solution would be to cut them out of the OrgLaw altogether.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Mar 30, 2017 21:45:34 GMT -6
I don't currently have an opinion on this bill, but I disagree with taking Immigration out of Interior. Cabinet ministers are political jobs by nature (which is one reason we have a Civil Service to fill jobs under cabinet level), and the position of Deputy Minister of Immigration (or Secretary of Immigration if you'd prefer) should be apolitical. I would have no problem with filling the position itself by the Civil Service, because while the job may be demanding, there aren't any policy issues that one would have in another position. I understand the point about immigration being mostly apolitical, but another thing we have to keep in mind is that Talossa has no public payroll, and the only way we have to compensate people who do the public's work is through recognition and status. More work of greater importance should equal more prestige. Immigration is one of the most critical jobs to have performed consistently and properly, and is as burdensome as any job in the cabinet, yet it was demoted by the creation of the Interior Ministry. The Civil Service was nice in theory, but we haven't seen people clamouring to take Civil Service positions. I don't really see a problem with recognising that we have a tradition of treating MinImm as a more or less apolitical role within the cabinet. But one alternative that we've discussed in the past is moving immigration to a royal household position.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Mar 30, 2017 21:49:15 GMT -6
Frankly, Home Affairs and Defence are nothing but sinecures which a Seneschál can give out as trinkets to buy Cosâ votes. There is no justification for having them Constitutionally enshrined in the first place and my preferred solution would be to cut them out of the OrgLaw altogether. Of the two, only Defence is in the OrgLaw, but I tend to agree that we should cut the ministries out of the OrgLaw. OrgLaw Article XII could just say that the cabinet consists of the Seneschal, Distain, and other ministers specified by law or appointed at the discretion of the Seneschal.
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Post by Þon Txoteu É. Davinescu on Apr 1, 2017 12:15:05 GMT -6
OK... the law as it is currently written is cut and paste (and messed up). I am, primarily, with this amendment am seeking to merely appropriately restructure Immigration, Defence and Home Affairs into Departments under Secretaries... as should have been done in the first place. These are roles that either are important or could be if managed properly. There is so much confusion on structure, I did some research and figured this was a good and simple place to start to fix these problems.
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Post by Þon Txoteu É. Davinescu on May 21, 2017 1:22:51 GMT -6
Any further thoughts on this? I'd like to clean it up to be added to the next Clark or so?
Jeremy
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on May 25, 2017 7:01:57 GMT -6
Give MinImm a cool apolitical title and scrap the rest of the Bill. Rhe reasons I had for proposing merging them still stand and have been articulated above.
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