Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 21, 2016 11:02:02 GMT -6
I understand what you mean, but it is still rather presumptuous of you to declare what aspects of the bill are and are not negotiable when you don't even know how many seats your party will have. I don't quite understand your argument here. Are you suggesting I shouldn't stand by my party's proposals and declare it nonnegotiable just because we're not Government? Is this not our Manifesto thread? What we have presented here is what we intend to do if we are to form Government. Our intentions aren't dependent on whether or not we gain the majority. The policies presented here are things we intend to carry out completely, but, like I said, the details that go into making these proposals into legislation is, of course, something we will need to hash out. Of course you should stand by your manifesto. Manifestos are, as you say, not subject to seat numbers. What I am saying is that passing legislation is subject to seat numbers. So, you can propose a bill and refuse to abandon its principle, but if a majority doesn't agree with the principle, don't expect it to pass. Alternatively, if you make substantive compromises, you might get additional support (but based on your previous comments you don't seem likely to do that)
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Nov 21, 2016 11:04:58 GMT -6
I don't quite understand your argument here. Are you suggesting I shouldn't stand by my party's proposals and declare it nonnegotiable just because we're not Government? Is this not our Manifesto thread? What we have presented here is what we intend to do if we are to form Government. Our intentions aren't dependent on whether or not we gain the majority. The policies presented here are things we intend to carry out completely, but, like I said, the details that go into making these proposals into legislation is, of course, something we will need to hash out. Of course you should stand by your manifesto. Manifestos are, as you say, not subject to seat numbers. What I am saying is that passing legislation is subject to seat numbers. So, you can propose a bill and refuse to abandon its principle, but if a majority doesn't agree with the principle, don't expect it to pass. Alternatively, if you make substantive compromises, you might get additional support (but based on your previous comments you don't seem likely to do that) We're not adverse to compromises at the appropriate time. For now, this is our manifesto, and these are our goals going into the next Cosa. If you'd like to make suggestions to our manifesto, then you're welcome to join the Free Democrats as a member. Otherwise, feel free to make criticisms and suggestions, but be aware that we aren't debating a Hoppered bill at the current time.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 21, 2016 11:11:55 GMT -6
Of course you should stand by your manifesto. Manifestos are, as you say, not subject to seat numbers. What I am saying is that passing legislation is subject to seat numbers. So, you can propose a bill and refuse to abandon its principle, but if a majority doesn't agree with the principle, don't expect it to pass. Alternatively, if you make substantive compromises, you might get additional support (but based on your previous comments you don't seem likely to do that) We're not adverse to compromises at the appropriate time. Thank you. This is what I was getting at.
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Nov 21, 2016 11:33:56 GMT -6
OK, so, I didn't have my computer all day yesterday, so there are some things I need to address. First of all, does everyone remember this cartoon of Dama Miestrâ's? The FreeDems lambasted the RUMP last term for promising to return to activity once they formed a government. Now, most of the FreeDems seem to be promising to return to activity in much the same fashion. Fair criticism, though I would say there is a difference between the RUMP returning to activity after being virtually silent for over a year, and us returning after a few months.I thought we weren't going to rehash old history? Oh well. As I recall it wasn't the inactivity of the FreeDems that caused the government of the 48th Cosa to fail. I guess we'll agree to disagree, but given that this now makes two straight government terms that MRPT ministers went AWOL, I would question exactly why the MRPT is so eager to level this criticism against us. I don't think anyone is claiming the FreeDems are completely immune, but we do have plans to keep the government functioning long after the Cabinet is seated and the budget passed. For instance, a FreeDem government would ensure the Seneschal has the power to fire any minister for inactivity at any time, to replace them with someone who is able to function in their position.I didn't see where in our manifesto we suggested we were going to cure Talossan inactivity. Our idea for an emailed Clark is just an idea, but it isn't like it's going to end the problem outright. What we are promising is an end to government inactivity. You just said that if government created non-political outlets, they would be bogged down by bureaucracy. How then would government facilitate or even support any such projects?I don't think that's at all what it would be saying. Plus, by making this statement, you're almost dumbing down the average inactive citizen. Let's be clear, these individuals are citizens, they went through the process, the waiting, and were well aware of the Talossan cultural landscape at the time they became a citizen. They know that politics is the subject of most of the posts on Witt, and if they are receiving the monthly report, that means they have also already opted-in to receiving emails from political parties during the GE. So let's not assume that the average Joe who gets the email is all the sudden going to realize that there are Talossan politics.I agree that unnecessary government intervention would turn people off. It would turn me off especially, and likely many of the Free Democrats, who pride ourself on supporting liberalism and democracy. So we agree here, but tell me exactly where a FreeDem government has planned to intervene anywhere.We aren't claiming bureaucracy will increase activity, nor are we promising more bureaucracy. A FreeDem government would ensure that all currently understaffed bureaus are fully staffed, every Cabinet member is doing their job, and nothing more. I would hardly consider a monthly email to be some bureaucratic nightmare; quite honestly, it could probably be put together and accomplished by MPF and our Chancery in no time at all, and it certainly wouldn't require any new offices to be created.[/quote]
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 21, 2016 11:37:26 GMT -6
What we are proposing as a party is very simple: Consistent and responsible governing. Whatever it is we must do to AT LEAST make the government running again, we will do. This is a promise none of the other parties can do or be trusted to do, frankly. Why should the FreeDems be trusted any more than other parties? It is certainly understandable that the FreeDems are going through a lull in activity, but then why should voters believe that the FreeDems are capable of "consistent and responsible governing"? If your answer is that the lull is over, then the FreeDems are doing the exact thing they criticized the RUMP for doing last term; only being active when their party is in power. I say again that there is no evidence anywhere that the FreeDems will be able to follow through with their grand promises. I would love to be shown this evidence, but so far the FreeDems simply restate their manifesto whenever they are questioned on their ability to enact it. There is no denying that the current government left several things to be desired. But to address Miestrâ's comments about teams, the MRPT currently has the largest, consistently active team. While the FreeDems promises the return of most of their members of they were to form a government, ModRads such as myself, Lüc, Glüc, Alex, and Jeremy Davis have been active throughout the past months, setting up the NCC and the Civil Service, updating the website, and advancing non-political activities in our private capacities. We have also made several important reforms as promised in our manifesto, which the FreeDems keep trivializing apparently to distract voters from the fact that they enacted very few of their manifesto planks in the past term. And before I am told again that our reforms don't matter because we haven't increased activity, I will remind everyone that our non-political programs have increased activity, and that the the FreeDem method of increasing activity (more bureaucracy) is unlikely to work. Of course, the non political activities of members of other parties is admirable and has also increased activity, but further illustrates my point that more government is not the answer
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Post by Inxheneu Crova on Nov 21, 2016 14:06:56 GMT -6
I've been struggling to respond to this latest series of posts.
Sarcasm is tempting but its a two edged blade, and I've had my one tantrum of the campaign (sorry Glüc-but the Clark idea is still a good one ;-)).
Anguish is inappropriate, since Talossa is silly. SERIOUSLY silly, but still silly. The country I live in might have a crypto-fascist President next May, so I'll save the impotent rage for that election. It might add years to my life.
Searching my feelings, the best I can come up with is dismay. Dismay at the fatalism displayed by our serving Minister of STUFF, and who affects to find something sinister in our government trying to promote our country any way it can. This was the job he sought in the last Cabinet after all. At least he (half)-accepts his responsibility for his failure (tempering it with the conviction that the FreeDems will also fail, so that's alright then).
Its not conservatism, since one could conceive of conservative ways of combatting the national malaise (making more of the monarchy? Bring back RUMP Day?) Its in fact a void of ideas, masquerading as libetarianism.
The Talossan state is not weighing down private initiative. Its the opposite. We have an incredibly weak state, with virtually no coercive power (and thank Christ for that!). People come to us for the politics, and accessorily the language. Our challenge as a country, in my view, and there may even be FreeDems who disagree, is to make this as accessible and fun as possible. When friendships are created and hijinks ensue, its because of our success in building a thriving political and linguistic community, and not the other way around.
The ideas in our manifesto do not rule out private initiative. Tell your friends about Talossa. Win the Prime Minister's Patriotic Award if thats your bag. If the FreeDems have something to do with it, you'll have something to point them to. Can the present government say that?
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 22, 2016 0:37:16 GMT -6
Anguish is inappropriate, since Talossa is silly. SERIOUSLY silly, but still silly. The country I live in might have a crypto-fascist President next May, so I'll save the impotent rage for that election. It might add years to my life. Searching my feelings, the best I can come up with is dismay. Dismay? I thought you said Talossa was silly All of us here are invested in the well-being of Talossa, so while we may disagree vigorously (which we apparently do, even more so than in our electoral college debate a few days ago), I would rather we not get dismayed with each other over differences of opinion. Dismay at the fatalism displayed by our serving Minister of STUFF, and who affects to find something sinister in our government trying to promote our country any way it can. Fatalism in what way? Just hours ago I said: Activity can be increased through non-political means, means like the Language, Wargaming, Music, Press, and pointless but entertaining threads in the Chatroom. Talossa has all of these at her disposal This does not seem like the statement of someone who believes there is nothing which can be done to increase activity. As I said, there are many things which can be done to increase activity, but none of them involve the government as a major player. Here, I should draw the line between government promotion of an activity and government management of an activity, as I have already been questioned once about it: You just said that if government created non-political outlets, they would be bogged down by bureaucracy. How then would government facilitate or even support any such projects? The government can promote an activity without needing to create it. Promotion, such as via social media ( check out our new Instagram) is a good way to keep people aware of what is going on, and can hopefully keep such an activity going on for longer by encouraging people to take part in it (indeed, I would be more inclined to support the monthly mailer if it included a summary of non-political activities as well). It is when the government takes it upon itself to create activities that bureaucracy becomes a problem. Non-political events appear naturally in Talossa, so the government should provide publicity (and the aid of the Minister of Culture when requested) but otherwise stay out of it. I would be pleased to hear if this is also the FreeDem position. This was the job he sought in the last Cabinet after all. Yes, this is my job, and yes, I could have done it better than I did. But don't say that I am somehow opposed to the idea of my portfolio, because if you read my last paragraph, you can see that I am not. I am not Ron Swanson. At least he (half)-accepts his responsibility for his failure (tempering it with the conviction that the FreeDems will also fail, so that's alright then). If the FreeDems form a government in the 50th Cosa, I will wish them nothing but the very best of luck. However, as I will expand more on later when I respond to Dien, I see little evidence that the FreeDems would actually be able to deliver their manifesto promises, and maintain that the ModRads currently have a more consistently active team than the FreeDems. Its in fact a void of ideas, masquerading as libetarianism. Please refer to my above list of non-political ways of increasing activity. Just because I have different ideas than you does not mean I have no ideas. When friendships are created and hijinks ensue, its because of our success in building a thriving political and linguistic community, and not the other way around. I would tend to disagree here. I don't think that anyone could stay active in government if it weren't for underlying friendships and ways to commune with other Talossans outside of politics. The happier and livelier the community is as a whole, the more likely it is that a government could retain a high activity level throughout its term. The ideas in our manifesto do not rule out private initiative. Good! I hope that private initiative does not become over-regulated either. Win the Prime Minister's Patriotic Award if thats your bag. I actually did get my dad to immigrate, and he maintains a low but steady level of activity. If the FreeDems have something to do with it, you'll have something to point them to. Can the present government say that? Yes, we can say that. Talossa.com and wiki.talossa are, for the most part, up to date, and this is where I imagine most immigrants are "pointed to." We have a Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram which citizens can use to promote Talossa. Gluc recently took control of the NCC and has already recruited several TalossAssistants. And of course, there are always the non-political activities conducted by people all across the political spectrum.
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Nov 22, 2016 7:34:51 GMT -6
Ian Plätschisch, I'll respond to your post above later, but I wanted to point out that they way you have it laid out makes it seems like I wrote everything you have quoted. Anyway you can edit this to clean it up some?
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 22, 2016 9:23:03 GMT -6
Ian Plätschisch , I'll respond to your post above later, but I wanted to point out that they way you have it laid out makes it seems like I wrote everything you have quoted. Anyway you can edit this to clean it up some? Did I make it more clear?
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Nov 22, 2016 9:49:41 GMT -6
Ian Plätschisch , I'll respond to your post above later, but I wanted to point out that they way you have it laid out makes it seems like I wrote everything you have quoted. Anyway you can edit this to clean it up some? Did I make it more clear? Yep, it's clearer now. Thanks.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 22, 2016 14:34:46 GMT -6
Fair criticism, though I would say there is a difference between the RUMP returning to activity after being virtually silent for over a year, and us returning after a few months. Well, your party has done almost nothing for the past several months, and now claims that they are the only party who can be trusted to make a functioning government. The ModRads, while we haven't done everything we've promised, have at least done something.If anyone went AWOL, it was HM Loyal Opposition. Granted, it is not everything on my initial list, but I have gotten a fair bit accomplished over this past term; -Significant updates to Talossa.com, and a mechanism for completing the rest of the updates -Reestablished our presence on social media (though I admit not as much as I hoped) -Increased the number of TalossaWiki editors, and created offices where information can be compiled -Began the process of consolidating our CafePress stores to sell TalossaWare, and a poll to know which items should be added Other parts of the government have made progress as well; -ID Cards!!! -Gluc now heads up the NCC and has recruited several TalossAssistants -More donations to charity -The Organic Law Standing Committee, while not officially government-sponsored, is made up mostly (if not solely) of government members, and has already made more progress that the Royal Commission on the Organic Law. You claimed earlier that RCOR could have prevented the near error in the second Standing Committee Bill, but this is ridiculous given that everyone who was on the RCOR is either completely inactive or is serving on the Standing Committee. You and other members of your party keep saying this, but never back it up with specifics (I address the one specific you did give below). This sounds very good in principle, but unless the FreeDems have a secret stash of members hiding somewhere, it does not appear that you would have the manpower to do that. I sincerely hope that if the FreeDems form a government, Miestra, Txec, CCX, and company will make a return and stay active throughout the term. But right now, the only team that has steadily maintained even a modest activity level is the ModRad team (MRPTeam?) Fair enough, but Inxheneu keeps implying that's what you are going to do: We have to prepare now to ensure that there will be 50 more Cosas! And the trick in Talossa, in my view, is not in avoiding the dips, because that's impossible. The trick is knowing how to climb out again. There's little point in proselytising if there's nothing to do or see when one does check out the Kingdom. This is what I hope all the parties can address in this election. The responsibity for this community rests with HM government alone, and we have all witnessed the result of a live experiment this term as to what happened when that government simply fades away. Anyway... What we are promising is an end to government inactivity. Again, be more specific. Finding ways to increase overall activity is a noble goal, and indeed, increasing government activity without increasing overall activity first is putting the cart before the horse. Government members need non-political things to do or else they will tire out. However, government itself cannot be source of non-political activities. What makes Talossa great is not its government, but its people, and the Talossan people are capable of things no government is. I would even hazard a guess that the reason the ModRad team has managed to stay the most active is that ModRads engage in the most non-political activities (kudos especially to Gluc for this). The government can help encourage people to participate, though. Inxheneu seemed to criticize me in his other thread for starting an Instagram account, but at the same time seems to be in favor of government promotion of non-political activities, so I was a little confused. There are arguments I could make here, but as you say, we are not debating a Hoppered bill, and I am very tired, so I will leave it at this for now. Again, fair point in that your manifesto does not mention intervening anywhere. However, your party members' main thrust against the current Government is that the government is terrible for allowing activity to slip on its watch and for not having a cure for this inactivity. Since no concrete plans for increasing activity were ever laid out by the FreeDems (again, not in your manifesto, but it is being brought up a lot by your members), I must have feared that your plans involved the government trying to create more non-political outlets. Apologies if I misinterpreted you (but if you have any such plans, I would love to hear them). TL;DR HOW???This is really the root of the problem with the Free Democrat campaign. They have done almost nothing the past term, and now promise everything without giving any explanation for how they plan to do it.The Moderate Radicals know we can't promise everything, because we know we can't achieve everything. But we have shown over the past term we can stay involved and make progress, even if it is not as much as we hoped.Idealists are fun to listen to, but pragmatism wins out in the end.MRPT - The Reasonable Alternative
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Post by Inxheneu Crova on Nov 22, 2016 14:40:03 GMT -6
We're already three pages into this thread, could we perhaps give voters a break and spread the discussion out a bit? Its going to become illegible otherwise.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 22, 2016 14:44:18 GMT -6
Sorry if it looks like I am shouting in that last post. I just made it bigger so people would know it is a summary.
Anyway, I agree with Inxheneu in his comment above (though, to be honest, I seriously need a break from debating for a while)
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Post by Inxheneu Crova on Nov 22, 2016 14:45:37 GMT -6
Yes, what we do not need is the 12 page monster from the last election. I was trying to follow it and it defeated me.
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