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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 10, 2016 4:40:20 GMT -6
It seems clear to me that the problem here is that there's not a significant body of literature or a significant infrastructure where suggestions could otherwise be kept or inculcated. So Ian rightly points out that the law should generally try to avoid anything that is not clearly juridicable and Epic is right to point out that some of those things are actually fun or important and they'd otherwise not exist. This was once the issue with the OrgLaw -- we had policies and procedures that didn't really belong in a constitution, but no good place to put them.
Ian, perhaps we could leave H.13 and H.15 alone for the time being? And then when the time comes and the Ziu adopts a guide to legislating, either the one I wrote or another one, then we could get rid of them?
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on May 10, 2016 5:23:26 GMT -6
Honestly, I do not see the harm in leaving any of those. I am sorry, but you whine around about us having a few “unnecessary” laws in a unified Code, when about a year ago, or so, we did not even have a code, and nobody was really sure which law was in force, and which was not. I reiterate that students and non-students of law have it much easier now, going through this one Unified Code of Law, than I and many other Talossans before El Lexhatx had. Just because an improvement has been made does not mean that further improvements should not be made. It seems clear to me that the problem here is that there's not a significant body of literature or a significant infrastructure where suggestions could otherwise be kept or inculcated. So Ian rightly points out that the law should generally try to avoid anything that is not clearly juridicable and Epic is right to point out that some of those things are actually fun or important and they'd otherwise not exist. Aren't Senses of the Ziu kept in the Digest of Laws? Epic was averse to moving H.13 and H.15 to a Sense of the Ziu, however they would be no less legally binding there, since they are not legally binding to begin with! Perhaps the solution is to keep all of the Senses of the Ziu in one place where they can be easily read (like another el Lexhatx of sorts). Would this suit you, Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 10, 2016 5:25:22 GMT -6
But I do not think this belongs in a Sense of the Ziu, because Senses only express opinions and feelings, whereas H.13 and H.15 are more than a Sense of the Ziu, they are heartily recommended suggestions. Maybe I am too emotional about the Talossan language, but that is how I feel.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on May 10, 2016 5:48:37 GMT -6
But I do not think this belongs in a Sense of the Ziu, because Senses only express opinions and feelings, whereas H.13 and H.15 are more than a Sense of the Ziu, they are heartily recommended suggestions. Maybe I am too emotional about the Talossan language, but that is how I feel. Suggestions ARE opinions
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 10, 2016 6:19:58 GMT -6
No, they are not. Otherwise, they would be called opinions, not suggestions. Apparently, there must be a difference, otherwise written and spoken language would not need to different words to distinguish them (both words come from Latin, thus this is no substrate-superstrate vocabulary difference).
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on May 10, 2016 6:51:12 GMT -6
The problem is in the tradition to have only two kind of acts: - Resolutions - Senses.
Laws should be approved straightforwardly.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on May 10, 2016 10:01:15 GMT -6
No, they are not. Otherwise, they would be called opinions, not suggestions. Apparently, there must be a difference, otherwise written and spoken language would not need to different words to distinguish them (both words come from Latin, thus this is no substrate-superstrate vocabulary difference). I am suggesting that this law be passed. Thus is it also my opinion that it should be passed. Suggestions of the Ziu stem from the opinions of the Ziu, and therefore belong in Senses (laws also can stem from opinions, however they are actually enforceable, as opposed to suggestions). I am still unsure why you oppose moving non-binding provisions out of the law and into a Sense of the Ziu (provided Senses become better collected). It would have the same effect as it does now.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 10, 2016 11:05:51 GMT -6
The problem is in the tradition to have only two kind of acts: - Resolutions - Senses. "Sense of the Ziu" resolutions are still resolutions, and get RZ numbers. I think it's more accurate to say that there are two main kinds of resolutions: those that enact law and those that express the sense of the Ziu. In the past the distinction between these wasn't always clearly made, but we have tried to be more careful about that over the last several years.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Jun 23, 2016 19:36:29 GMT -6
Eventually, but probably not in time for the next Clark, I will divide this bill up so that at least some of it can pass.
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