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Post by Eðo Grischun on Apr 13, 2016 20:27:31 GMT -6
ARTICLES OF TREATY FOR A POLITICAL UNION BETWEEN THE PROVINCE OF MARITIIMI-MAXHESTIC AND THE UNITED PROVINCES OF VUODE AND DANDENBURG ----------- PREAMBLEWe, the {{people/represtatives of the people}}, of the Province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic and the United Provinces of Vuode and Dandenburg hereby enter into this formal and binding agreement, and doing so in good faith, and in the belief that doing so will be of great benefit to our great provinces, and in the spirit of co-operation and cordiality, hereby adopt these articles of treaty and for this agreement to remain in force in perpetuity. THE ARTICLESA. The province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic (herein: Maritiimi-Maxhestic) and the United Provinces of Vuode and Dandenburg (herein; Vuode), shall upon {{DATE}}, and forever after, join in a political and legal union by the name of THE ALLIANCE OF MARITIIMI, DANDENBURG, MAXHESTIC AND VUODE (or in short THE MARITIIMI-VUODE ALLIANCE). B. This union does not remove nor revoke the soveriegn rights of each individual province as granted by the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa. Nor does this alliance seek to impinge, revoke or remove the individual indentity, character or culture of each individual province entering into this alliance. C. This union shall provide for the creation of one unified {{parliament/assembly/?}} composed of members representing the individual regions of this alliance. D. Representative membership within, and election hereto, this body shall be defined by law. E. This union shall never restrict freedom of trade, navigation or movement between the individual and soveriegn provinces of Maritiimi-Maxhestic and Vuode. F. Any law enacted by this new unified {{parliament/assembly/?}} shall ensure equal treatment for all citizens under this new alliance. G. Any law enacted by this new unified {{parliament/assembly/?}} shall not be inconsistent with the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa. H. This treaty shall take effect upon the fufillment of all of the following conditions only: i: That the citizenry of the Province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic ratify these articles by method of {{xxxx}}. ii: That the citizenry of the United Provinces of Vuode and Dandenburg ratify these articles by method of {{xxxx}}. iii: That the Provincial Constitution of Maritiimi-Maxhestic is amended to become compatiple with these articles. iV: That the Provincial Constitution of Vuode is amended to become compatible with these articles. I. This treaty shall remain in effect in perpetuity in so long as a majority of the citizenry of both provinces so wish. This treaty may be rescinded by popular referendum by either province at any stage, without prejudice nor penalty. Together, Speaking as One, We Pray it be so.Undersigned.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Apr 13, 2016 20:37:24 GMT -6
It seems to me, that before we get bogged down in the finer details, that we should work out the terms of the agreement/union ... namely, a treaty.
NOTE: THIS IS JUST A DRAFT. PLEASE GIVE YOUR INPUT.
FURTHER NOTE: As I see it, there is nothing wrong in perfecting this treaty in the good faith that it will come to pass at some stage in the future. Take notice of the article stating the treaty only takes effect upon dual ratification, etc.
Anyway,
This is my initial thoughts of what our treaty of union would/could/should look like. It's fairly simple. I believe it should be simple. I don't think the treaty should be overly complex. For most instances of intricacy I would suggest we use the term "as defined by law". Ie: A simple framework agreement, officially marking the fact that this alliance/union is an actual thing, but leaving out things that may change over time and allowing those changes to the remit of the new joint assembly.
Thoughts, input, etc?
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Apr 13, 2016 23:41:49 GMT -6
Can I say something now that you are not talking in the Assembly anymore?
You can't have your cake and eat it to... You have to decide on: are you 1 province or 2? You can't chose what you need and maximise your result...
Or the Cantons of a province around the country will start to secede and become Provinces signing "treaty" among each other to form an Union to keep the government of the original province but multiplying the number of Senators.
Vuode is dying for lack of activity? Then merge with M-M, with 1 Senator. Or stay as it is now.
Imagine what will happen with the federal government if all the Provinces "sign" something like this forming an Union of all Provinces?
Assuming that a "treaty" like this is organic, which shall be demonstrated.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Apr 14, 2016 1:22:09 GMT -6
You know, if we had weighted senäts voting, this wouldn't really be an issue *swims back to Cézembre as punishment for intervening*
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Apr 14, 2016 1:46:42 GMT -6
You know, if we had weighted senäts voting, this wouldn't really be an issue *swims back to Cézembre as punishment for intervening* I'm all in favour of weighted Senäts voting. But this would still be an issue. *talking from las Înaltàns Maxhéstici above*
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 14, 2016 2:05:42 GMT -6
Can I say something now that you are not talking in the Assembly anymore? You can't have your cake and eat it to... You have to decide on: are you 1 province or 2? You can't chose what you need and maximise your result... Or the Cantons of a province around the country will start to secede and become Provinces signing "treaty" among each other to form an Union to keep the government of the original province but multiplying the number of Senators. Vuode is dying for lack of activity? Then merge with M-M, with 1 Senator. Or stay as it is now. Imagine what will happen with the federal government if all the Provinces "sign" something like this forming an Union of all Provinces? Assuming that a "treaty" like this is organic, which shall be demonstrated. I do not see why that would be so negative. Scotland, Wales, England, and Northern Ireland have done it, and the UK has not perished, or fallen prey to evil federal government scavengers. I do not see a Union of all Provinces happening any time soon, but suppose it were to happen — how would that negatively affect the Royal government?
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Apr 14, 2016 2:46:49 GMT -6
I do not see why that would be so negative. Scotland, Wales, England, and Northern Ireland have done it, and the UK has not perished, or fallen prey to evil federal government scavengers. That's a very naïve vision of the history of the UK. - England conquered and annexed Wales in the second half of the XIII century, and the land of Saint David became part of the Kingdom of England. - England invaded Ireland and ruled it under different system (from feudal and so on) culminating in the proclamation of the Kingdom of Ireland in 1542 in personal union with the Crown of England. Henry VIII was at the same time King of England and King of Ireland. But they were two different Kingdoms, two states. - Scotland and England for a while were 2 different kingdoms in a personal Union of the Crowns because the same person inherited both. James Stuart was at the same time James IV of Scotland and James I of England. But two differents States, with each one its parliament, governement, judicial system, laws, nobility, ecc... - in 1707 Scotland and England became a unified Kingdom: Kingdom of Great Britain. One Kingdom, One State. - in 1801 Great Britain and Ireland become a unifed Kingdom: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. One Kingdom, One State. (Please note that it's Unifed Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland because England and Scotland (and Wales) were long gone as Kingdom/State when the 1801 union gave birth to the modern UK: the kingdoms that became United were those of Great Britain and Ireland). England Scotland Wales (Northern) Ireland, were not Provinces of the UK that become unifed. The United Kingdom is the result of a process of different kingdoms, different states, unifying in One. The Crown Dependencies were left out of this processz, so the Isle of Man, Guenrsey, Jersey are in personal union with the Crown but are not part of the UK. The recent process gave different degrees of autonomy to Scotland, Wales and (Northern) Ireland (not England) within the united state, the UK, by way of the UK Parliament devolving some of its powers to an ad hoc home nation Parliament or Assembly. That's nothing comparable to what is happening here. This sentence is a nosense.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 14, 2016 3:02:20 GMT -6
Notwithstanding HOW it happened, it happened. And I do not see that the result was inherently bad for national government, or that the other countries necessarily lost their identity. And I note that you have not replied to my question.
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Apr 14, 2016 3:04:49 GMT -6
Notwithstanding HOW it happened, it happened. And I do not see that the result was inherently bad for national government, or that the other countries necessarily lost their identity. And I note that you have not replied to my question. Read what I've written above. Because I'm not sure you understood it. Which national government? Please, do follow that road. But you have to become One United Province. Not Two Provinces.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 14, 2016 4:33:45 GMT -6
Why? I don’t see a single reason that could be brought forward to say that becoming a Confederation of Provinces is worse than becoming one united province.
You say that if we became a Confederation of Provinces, other provinces would follow suit and a big conglomerate of One Province would ensue, and endanger the Talossan national government.
I say that no matter if we became a Confederation, or one Province, other provinces could still follow suit and unite into One Big Chunk of a Province. Therefore, I think that your point is moot, since becoming one Province does not mean that other provinces cannot do the same, or since becoming a confederation does not mean that other provinces WILL do the same...
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Apr 14, 2016 5:24:01 GMT -6
Indeed, I don't see any reason -- legal or otherwise -- why we can't govern the two provinces jointly, or administer a joint body of law. Nor do I see the danger if other provinces follow suit, such as if Maricopa and Ataturk were to combine their local governments. The Organic Law prohibits cantons or provinces from seceding, so there's no danger there.
Checking over the OrgLaw again, I don't see anything to prevent two provinces from agreeing on a joint governmental structure or agreeing on a joint body of law. The local representation of our citizens is being preserved, any agreement will be ratified by referendum, and there will be no impact on national representation. And there's a ton of precedent for binding citizens to a body of law that's not purely indigenous, thanks to Lex.A.1.
I see no way this will harm anyone, here or in another province, and a number of ways it can help our citizens.
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Apr 14, 2016 6:41:30 GMT -6
It seems to me that you don't fully understand the principle under which sovereignty flows, and the irony of a self proclaimed new peculiarist explaining this to self proclaimed derivatists is, well, "peculiar". The Kingdom of Talossa is a unitary nation, not a federal one (I know we commonly use the adjective "federal" as a substitute for "national" i.e: "Federal Government" or "federal legislation", even in the OrgLaw, but this is one of many inherited habits and jargons of american reality lived by most of our fathers and most of our citizens: it's the whole of the OrgLaw that defines the nature of a State) OrgLaw § I.1 «I, Robert I, His Royal Me, proclaim the Kingdom of Talossa to be an independent unit in the master plan of World Singular Secession. In doing so, I am seceding from the United States of America.» and the Provinces are (OrgLaw § XVII) «territorial subdivisions» of the Kingdom: (OrgLaw § XVII.1) «The metropolitan territory of Talossa is subdivided into Cantons (els Cantons) and Provinces» (OrgLaw § XVII.5) «which are self-governing and autonomous.»The sovereignty in Talossa flows top-down, from the Kingdom to its territorial subdivisions, the Provinces; and not bottom-up like in federal nations. It's the Kingdom which devolves some of its powers to the Provinces, powers that shall be exercised according with the Law of the Kingdom, and not the contrary like in the US where the States devolved some of their powers to a federal entity. It's the Kingdom that creates the Provinces, not the other way around. Those powers are defined in OrgLaw § XVII.8 as those «not vested in the Kingdom by this Organic Law», in particular the whole Organic Law and OrgLaw § XVII.6 (among the enumerations of powers exercised by the Kingdom there's § XVII.6.18 «Disputes and relations between Provinces»), and are exercised by each Province which (OrgLaw § XVII.9) «shall govern itself in such a manner as to guarantee its citizens the full protection of their rights under this Organic Law» and are in particular (OrgLaw § XVII.5) «administered by constitutional governments elected democratically within the Province». The Kingdom devoled some of its powers to its internal territorial subdivisions that, as they are not entity of their own but created by the Kingdom, doesn't have a territorial definition or an existence a priori of their own but they are defined, created and modified by the Kingdom, with the consent, of course, of the people living in those subdivisions, § XVII.5 and § XVII.13. Those devolved powers shall be exercised in each Province by a Government whose authority to exercise them is granted by the Kingdom within the Province itself. Each Province can exercise the powers vested in them by the OrgLaw only within its borders, not outside of them. The phisical borders of the Province are the borders where governmental authority can be exercised.This Treaty, or any treaty or act by which a Province vests its powers to an entity outside of its borders different from the Kingdom and the national institutions, is inorganic because it operates outside of the organic framework that allows them to exercise authority.Furthemore, it undermines the principle around an essential part of the national government is built upon and works: the Senäts, which is the place where each Province, exercising their powers within the limit of the organic framework, is equally represented. This is the law of the Kingdom, and if you persist to follow this inorganic course, I'm fully prepared to go to the Uppermost Cort. For easy reference, the OrgLaw is here.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 14, 2016 7:07:52 GMT -6
It seems to me that you don't fully understand the principle under which sovereignty flows, and the irony of a self proclaimed new peculiarist explaining this to self proclaimed derivatists is, well, "peculiar". The Kingdom of Talossa is a unitary nation, not a federal one (I know we commonly use the adjective "federal" as a substitute for "national" i.e: "Federal Government" or "federal legislation", even in the OrgLaw, but this is one of many inherited habits and jargons of american reality lived by most of our fathers and most of our citizens: it's the whole of the OrgLaw that defines the nature of a State) OrgLaw § I.1 «I, Robert I, His Royal Me, proclaim the Kingdom of Talossa to be an independent unit in the master plan of World Singular Secession. In doing so, I am seceding from the United States of America.» and the Provinces are (OrgLaw § XVII) «territorial subdivisions» of the Kingdom: (OrgLaw § XVII.1) «The metropolitan territory of Talossa is subdivided into Cantons (els Cantons) and Provinces» (OrgLaw § XVII.5) «which are self-governing and autonomous.»The sovereignty in Talossa flows top-down, from the Kingdom to its territorial subdivisions, the Provinces; and not bottom-up like in federal nations. It's the Kingdom which devolves some of its powers to the Provinces, powers that shall be exercised according with the Law of the Kingdom, and not the contrary like in the US where the States devolved some of their powers to a federal entity. It's the Kingdom that creates the Provinces, not the other way around. Those powers are defined in OrgLaw § XVII.8 as those «not vested in the Kingdom by this Organic Law», in particular the whole Organic Law and OrgLaw § XVII.6 (among the enumerations of powers exercised by the Kingdom there's § XVII.6.18 «Disputes and relations between Provinces»), and are exercised by each Province which (OrgLaw § XVII.9) «shall govern itself in such a manner as to guarantee its citizens the full protection of their rights under this Organic Law» and are in particular (OrgLaw § XVII.5) «administered by constitutional governments elected democratically within the Province». The Kingdom devoled some of its powers to its internal territorial subdivisions, that as they are not entity of their own but created by the Kingdom, doesn't have a territorial definition or an existence a priori of their own but they are defined, created and modified by the Kingdom (with the consent, of course, of the people living in those subdivisions). Those devolved powers shall be exercised in each Province by a Government whose authority to exercise them is granted by the Kingdom within the Province itself. Each Province can exercise the powers vested in them by the OrgLaw only within its borders, not outside of them. The phisical borders of the Province are the borders where authority can be exercised.This Treaty, or any treaty or act by which a Province vests its powers to an entity outside of its borders different from the Kingdom and the national institutions, is inorganic because it operates outside of the organic framework that allows them to exercise authority.Furthemore, it undermines the principle around an essential part of the national government is built upon and works: the Senäts, which is the place where each Province, exercising their powers within the limit of the organic framework, is equally represented. This is the law of the Kingdom, and if you persist to follow this inorganic course, I'm fully prepared to go to the Uppermost Cort. For easy reference, the OrgLaw is here. Thank you for referencing the Organic Law to at least two (if not four — I do not know of S:reu Plätschisch’s and Senator Grischun’s status) lawyers admitted into the Royal Talossan Bar. Indeed, I do not think that you would have standing to file a lawsuit in re Unison of the Provinces of Maritiimi-Maxhestic, and Vuode and Dandenburg, but it is your right to try to do so. I only fail to see any interest you might have therein. It makes not much of a difference legally whether the Kingdom has begun its structures from top to bottom, or from below upward. The result is the same, in that provinces are autonomous. Indeed, not everything is devolved from the Ziu to the Provincial legislature, consider Org.XVII:8 in its entirety ( All powers not vested in the Kingdom by this Organic Law shall be vested exclusively in the Provinces.), which states that the Ziu does not reserve the right to fully wield powers over provinces. Hence, provinces are in part fully autonomous. Therefore, Talossa is partially federal. And in practice, when Provinces have full authority in certain matters, and may wield it as they please, then they can also sign into treaties, and contracts, concerning these matters with other provinces, that affect their respective governance. Freedom to govern also means freedom to govern jointly. Consider also Org.XVII:1, which reads: I, personally, will not further entertain you hijacking this thread. If you have any reservations, you may open a separate thread, and you are very welcome to do so in our Province, and I am sure that the Vuodeans-Dandenburgeois would welcome your point of view, as well (however, I do not speak for them). Good day, S:reu Tärfâ.
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Apr 14, 2016 7:39:07 GMT -6
Thank you for referencing the Organic Law to at least two (if not four — I do not know of S:reu Plätschisch’s and Senator Grischun’s status) lawyers admitted into the Royal Talossan Bar. ... Autonomous within the limit set by the OrgLaw. Au contraire, § XVII.8 states the opposite of what you affirm: it's very same section of the Organic Law that limits the powers of the Provinces within the boundary set by the OrgLaw itself, it's a residual granting of power from the Kingdom to its territorial subdivisions. "In part" is the key. "As they please" and "freedom to govern", again, within the limit set by the OrgLaw; and "freedom to govern jointly" goes outside of them. How internal subdivisions of a Province are relevant to this matter? Good day Senator da Lhiun, see you soon.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 14, 2016 7:55:39 GMT -6
ARTICLES OF TREATY FOR A POLITICAL UNION BETWEEN THE PROVINCE OF MARITIIMI-MAXHESTIC AND THE UNITED PROVINCES OF VUODE AND DANDENBURG ----------- PREAMBLEWe, the {{people/represtatives of the people}}, of the Province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic and the United Provinces of Vuode and Dandenburg hereby enter into this formal and binding agreement, and doing so in good faith, and in the belief that doing so will be of great benefit to our great provinces, and in the spirit of co-operation and cordiality, hereby adopt these articles of treaty and for this agreement to remain in force in perpetuity. THE ARTICLESA. The province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic (herein: Maritiimi-Maxhestic) and the United Provinces of Vuode and Dandenburg (herein; Vuode), shall upon {{DATE}}, and forever after, join in a political and legal union by the name of THE ALLIANCE OF MARITIIMI, DANDENBURG, MAXHESTIC AND VUODE (or in short THE MARITIIMI-VUODE ALLIANCE). B. This union does not remove nor revoke the soveriegn rights of each individual province as granted by the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa. Nor does this alliance seek to impinge, revoke or remove the individual indentity, character or culture of each individual province entering into this alliance. C. This union shall provide for the creation of one unified {{parliament/assembly/?}} composed of members representing the individual regions of this alliance. D. Representative membership within, and election hereto, this body shall be defined by law. E. This union shall never restrict freedom of trade, navigation or movement between the individual and soveriegn provinces of Maritiimi-Maxhestic and Vuode. F. Any law enacted by this new unified {{parliament/assembly/?}} shall ensure equal treatment for all citizens under this new alliance. G. Any law enacted by this new unified {{parliament/assembly/?}} shall not be inconsistent with the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa. H. This treaty shall take effect upon the fufillment of all of the following conditions only: i: That the citizenry of the Province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic ratify these articles by method of {{xxxx}}. ii: That the citizenry of the United Provinces of Vuode and Dandenburg ratify these articles by method of {{xxxx}}. iii: That the Provincial Constitution of Maritiimi-Maxhestic is amended to become compatiple with these articles. iV: That the Provincial Constitution of Vuode is amended to become compatible with these articles. I. This treaty shall remain in effect in perpetuity in so long as a majority of the citizenry of both provinces so wish. This treaty may be rescinded by popular referendum by either province at any stage, without prejudice nor penalty. Together, Speaking as One, We Pray it be so.Undersigned. Right, so let’s see:
A. The Province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic (hereinafter: Maritiimi-Maxhestic), and the United Provinces of Vuode and Dandenburg (hereinafter: Vuode), shall upon {{DATE}}, and forever after, join in a political, and legal union by the name of THE CONFEDERATION (I really like confederation, it makes me feel like a Swiss man) OF MARITIIMI, DANDENBURG, MAXHESTIC AND VUODE (or in short THE MARITIIMI-VUODE CONFEDERATION). B. This union does not remove, nor revoke, the sovereign rights, and the authority of each individual province as granted by the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa. Nor does this alliance seek to impinge, revoke, or remove the individual identity, character, or culture of each individual province entering into this alliance. C. This union shall provide for the creation of one unified {{parliament/assembly/?}} composed of members representing the individual regions of this alliance. D. Membership in this new unified body may be requested by any citizen of the Confederation during General Elections. Citizens of the Confederation may also indicate a party to represent them in this unified {{parliament/assembly/?}}. The exact procedures of election shall be governed by conjoint law.E. Any law enacted by this new unified {{parliament/assembly/?}} shall ensure equal treatment for all citizens under this new alliance. F. Any law enacted by this new unified {{parliament/assembly/?}} shall be considered null and void in those parts that violate the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa.
G. The {{parliament/assembly/?}} of the Confederation shall during its first convocation work towards an equal Constitution of both provinces, in order to ensure equal rights to citizens in all parts of the Confederation.H. Any law enacted by the {{parl/assem/?}} shall be translated into the language of the Kingdom, el Glheþ Talossan, as well as the culturally important minority languages of Maritiimi-Maxhestic, which is German, and that of Vuode, which is {{French/Latin/Finnish???}, what is it, you guys?}.I. In addition to this {{parl/assem/?}}, each Province of the Confederation shall elect one Tribune of the Peace to sit in the Confederate Tribunal of Equality. These two Tribunes of the Peace shall each have power to reject a law enacted by the {{parl/assem/?}}, if they deem it detrimentary to the freedom, or sovereignty, or safety, of their respective province. Upon such rejection, the law shall not be enforced in any part of the Confederation, and shall be sent back to the {{parl/assem/?}} for deliberation. The exact procedures of electing a Tribune of the Peace to the Confederate Tribunal of Equality shall be governed by law.
K. A law rejected by any Tribune may be passed notwithstanding such a rejection by an absolute majority of the {{parl/assem/?}}. A law may only be rejected once.
L. Amendments to the Constitution, or to the procedures of election to the Tribunal must not be rejected by any Tribune.M. Upon passage of an act by the {{parl/assem/?}}, the Confederate Tribunal of Equality shall have one fortnight to announce a rejection. After such time, no Tribune shall have power to reject said act.N. This treaty shall take effect upon the fulfilment of all of the following conditions only: i: That the citizenry of the Province of Maritiimi-Maxhestic ratify these articles by method of {{xxxx}}. ii: That the citizenry of the United Provinces of Vuode and Dandenburg ratify these articles by method of {{xxxx}}. iii: That the Provincial Constitution of Maritiimi-Maxhestic is amended to become compatiple with these articles. iv: That the Provincial Constitution of Vuode is amended to become compatible with these articles. O. This union shall never restrict freedom of trade, navigation, or movement between the individual and sovereign provinces of Maritiimi-Maxhestic, and Vuode. P. This treaty shall remain in effect in perpetuity in so long as a majority of the citizenry of both provinces so wish. This treaty may be rescinded by popular referendum by either province at any stage, without prejudice nor penalty. Together, Speaking as One, We Pray it be so. Undersigned.
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