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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Mar 9, 2016 19:21:30 GMT -6
All right, maybe I'm off-base. Not interested in arguing about it -- not interested in yet another sprawling, long, exhausting debate where old grudges are revived... the same sort of debate that every discussion seems to turn into, these days, in this bog of antique vengeances. I'm going to try to practice what I preach. Have a good night.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Mar 9, 2016 19:32:30 GMT -6
That's quite a mature reaction, AD, good on you.
But for the other participants, I want to re-iterate: Pól's renunciation letter where he blamed the nastiness on Reunision and thus on the reviensadéirs was, in itself, part of the hurtful, toxic partisanship which is par for the course in Talossa these days. Remember that we also lost Admiral Tim to the nastiest piece of political chicanery ever pulled off in Talossa (and almost lost AD for that matter). We don't know who did that, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a reviensadéir.
There have been so many things which have happened in Talossa to cause us to lose trust in one another; hyper-partisanship breeds hyper-partisanship. I don't think the RUMP understand, for example, how much the King's miéidâ da toreu on the Proclamation Crisis destroyed trust among the moderate and the reformist parties that the monarchy, or at least its incumbent, are trustworthy. I personally, and Dr Nordselva, were badly hurt personally by AD's intervention in the subsequent lawsuit trying to get us nailed for corrupt ex parte conversations. I almost had a total emotional breakdown when that was brought out of the bag and I believe Txec almost renounced. No-one on the RUMP side ever offered any personal condolences on that, like we are supposed to offer to Pól.
And yet, it is always the reactions of moderates and reformists which are brought up by the RUMP as the problem - not the 'clever' moves by the King and his political allies to put us in our place. When people get angry and finger-pointy about "political fights", they always seem to be the fans of the party which have pulled all these slick moves on other parties, who are then shamed for their reactions to being targeted by hard-ball political manoeuvres, or - in this case - being blamed for 'making Talossa mean and fight-y'.
Look in the mirror, guys. If the whole problem seems to be how those other guys are reacting, maybe the opposite is true.
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Mar 11, 2016 3:23:07 GMT -6
.... 1. Talossa is currently almost exclusively political. The nature of democratic politics is one of debate and (less ideally, of course) altercation. Thus, parties are forced to approach one another to achieve their goals, thereby factually representing more than just their electorate. 2. Missing cultural activity does not allow for Talossans to vent, in a Talossan atmosphere, and to get negative energy accumulated by political debate and altercation out of their system. 3. Citizen activity, and numbers of active citizens are low and sinking even further. This results in the same people, doing the same things, committing the same errors, taking on the same issues. We are not evolving. So, for above reasons, there is currently either two options for Talossa and Talossans: either inactivity, or frustration leading to debate, altercation, and increased toxicity. We desperately need much more adtive citizens AND a place and/or places, whither citizens — all of them —can and must retreat to enjoy bounding with their compatriots in a non-political climate. You may not be quoting my words exactly - but you are quoting my very thoughts. Talossa needs - and needs badly - to become something other than (higher than?) a political shouting-room.
Come on, lads and lasses - culture, friendship, language, cooking, jokes, computer games, music, poetry, declarations of best sports teams, descriptions of odd things that happened on holiday, looking to the real future - not the political future.
Culture.
Talossan culture.
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King John
King of Talossa
Posts: 2,415
Talossan Since: 5-7-2005
Knight Since: 11-30-2005
Motto: COR UNUM
King Since: 3-14-2007
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Post by King John on Mar 11, 2016 11:38:26 GMT -6
May I once again suggest we try to respond to what people actually write, rather than our interpretations of they might have meant? Pol wrote "We feel that since reunision this country taken a turn for the worse". That might indeed mean that he blames the worsening climate on Reunision, one way or another, or it might simply be a time-reference, as one might say "Political discourse in America has been coursening since the 1980s". And even if he meant that the Reunision *caused* the perceived problem, that doesn't assign blame to any particular group of people. He could mean "The former Republicans caused this by being rude and nasty", or "Talossans in the Kingdom caused this by suspicion and refusing to accept the Republicans", or a very even-handed "Any time two groups with such different histories try to merge, you're going to get a lot of bad feeling."
— John R
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Mar 11, 2016 12:05:26 GMT -6
May I once again suggest we try to respond to what people actually write, rather than our interpretations of they might have meant? Pol wrote "We feel that since reunision this country taken a turn for the worse". That might indeed mean that he blames the worsening climate on Reunision, one way or another, or it might simply be a time-reference, as one might say "Political discourse in America has been coursening since the 1980s". And even if he meant that the Reunision *caused* the perceived problem, that doesn't assign blame to any particular group of people. He could mean "The former Republicans caused this by being rude and nasty", or "Talossans in the Kingdom caused this by suspicion and refusing to accept the Republicans", or a very even-handed "Any time two groups with such different histories try to merge, you're going to get a lot of bad feeling." — John R those are VERY good points I hadn't really considered. Thanks for calming things down!
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 11, 2016 12:15:19 GMT -6
May I once again suggest we try to respond to what people actually write, rather than our interpretations of they might have meant? Pol wrote "We feel that since reunision this country taken a turn for the worse". That might indeed mean that he blames the worsening climate on Reunision, one way or another, or it might simply be a time-reference, as one might say "Political discourse in America has been coursening since the 1980s". And even if he meant that the Reunision *caused* the perceived problem, that doesn't assign blame to any particular group of people. He could mean "The former Republicans caused this by being rude and nasty", or "Talossans in the Kingdom caused this by suspicion and refusing to accept the Republicans", or a very even-handed "Any time two groups with such different histories try to merge, you're going to get a lot of bad feeling." — John R Nice try, almost bought it, but then I read his renunciation and his wife's renunciaction (← no typo there) again, and common sense kicked in. It may indeed have been a time reference, but I doubt it, since a decent person who has at heart the feelings of fellow (ex-)compatriots, would have clarified that he were neither blaming Reviensadeirs for this particularly, nor that he were blaming particularly the rest — to which, I may add, he belonged.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Mar 11, 2016 12:55:27 GMT -6
Nice work, Epic. It's a rhetorical move to which I've gotten used:
King/RUMP: "Oh, poor us, those other parties are so mean and vicious and personal, what is wrong with them?" Other parties: "But what about all the 'clever' sneaky moves and backhanded put-downs from you guys?" King/RUMP: "Well, no-one's REALLY at fault..."
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 11, 2016 13:08:46 GMT -6
Nice work, Epic. It's a rhetorical move to which I've gotten used: King/RUMP: "Oh, poor us, those other parties are so mean and vicious and personal, what is wrong with them?" Other parties: "But what about all the 'clever' sneaky moves and backhanded put-downs from you guys?" King/RUMP: "Well, no-one's REALLY at fault..." Thank you, milady.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 11, 2016 13:15:47 GMT -6
Wow that picture is huge.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Mar 11, 2016 14:23:03 GMT -6
This is what Pol said: "It is with a sad heart, that my wife and I have come to the conclusion that we as a family, no longer want to be part of Talossa. It's been fun, but having two young children with health issues has taken any free time we did have. We feel that since reunision this country taken a turn for the worse, and that is not something we wish to expose our children to. Maybe after our kids grow up we might check back and see how things are going, if this country is still around. Thanks for the memories." It is a sign of our current disease that this statement has been interpreted with such an ungenerous exegesis. It's one more small stone which has been carefully plucked up and meticulously fitted into a vast complex of grudges, added to the edifice that serves as justification for any and all behavior and rhetoric -- that mighty wall of viciousness that steadily rises amongst us, year by year, and which casts a shadow over new and old citizens alike and sends them shivering away, out into the sun. If you try hard enough, you can always find slights and discourtesies on the road. If you try hard enough, you can collect them all, and add to your grudges so that they keep rising higher, year by year. Temporary anger, inelegant phrasing, and genuine offensiveness will always provide plenty of building material for the avid collector. Some aspects of our psychology make it easy. But maybe sometimes, when you find a stone like that in the road... keep walking. A better world waits at the end of the road, if we're not always stooping low to build our grudges high.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Mar 11, 2016 14:38:48 GMT -6
Jesus wept, AD, have you heard of the psychological mechanism of "projection"?
You never, ever think for a moment that making these grandiloquent speeches about how Talossa is shrinking because other people - not you, NEVER EVER you - are assholes is precisely adding to the very "wall" you're talking about?
Do you really not understand that this is precisely the kind of thing - the superior, smug, put-down, the blame-others reaction - that makes Talossa worse for everyone?
Pól quits of his own regard - it's a tragedy. Dr Nordselva tries to protect Audradâ by pointing out that Pól can't renounce for her - Audradâ is rude as miéidâ to him. Admiral Tim had to leave because some scumbag tried to attack his personal life, and you not only show no compassion, you accuse him of sending those letters himself. And yet none of what's happening is ever, ever your fault.
Look in the mirror. You are the kindergarten kid who pokes and prods others when the teacher's not looking - then when they lose their patience and yell at you, you cry for teacher. You provoke the nastiness yourself, blame others, and then say "he he" when others get blamed.
I have never seen one shred of self awareness from you that you bear any responsibility for the admittedly gutter-level tone of discourse in Talossa. And I bet - I just bet - that you will ignore this heartfelt plea for you to show some humility, and just chalk it up as more evidence that the problem is Miestrâ and her friends.
You are so convinced that the problem is all other people, aren't you? Or - perhaps - you don't believe that, you just love trolling and upsetting others? "Putting them in their place" - that's what you call it in private, isn't it?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Mar 11, 2016 15:00:57 GMT -6
I'm not sure that an extended allegory calling for compassion and generosity, which I intended for the country in general, can be interpreted as an attack. Certainly if it is in some way hurtful, and it somehow strikes someone as "gutter-level," I regret that (even if I'm surprised to hear it). As this thread should show, I have been trying very hard to practice what I preach... I'm trying to be the change I want to see in Talossa.
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Mar 11, 2016 15:11:21 GMT -6
FFS, if he didn't point fingers just let it go. OK? There are more probable interpretations of what they meant and less probable ones, but they didn't actually accuse anyone. Just let it go.
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Post by Inxheneu Crova on Mar 11, 2016 15:14:48 GMT -6
If one thinks something is wrong with Talossa, try to fix it, particularly if you are a Senator or a provincial Governor. That would be better that self-importantly, but incoherently, announcing one's renunication, while delberately or otherwise pressing on the faultline that you decry.
Or, the lesson for future suffering martyrs is this. Don't protest the drama by creating entirely predictable drama. If thats the best one can do, then perhaps Talossa is better off without your lrss than essential presence.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Mar 11, 2016 15:44:32 GMT -6
Okay, I am going to take this at face value and try to explain to you in a comradely way why I don't think it's working, okay?
Telling the rest of us off for being "ungenerous" to Pól's renunciation when you actually claimed that Admiral Tim engineered his own renunciation to cover up for a dastardly plan to wreck your own life is... lacking in insight. Telling the rest of us off for "bearing grudges" when you are famous for finding quotes that your political opponents made years ago to embarrass them is... lacking in insight.
Telling the rest of us off for things which we believe you do yourself is, in general, lacking in insight. If, for example, Donald Trump were to call out the other US presidential candidates for being vulgar, abusive and racist, he would get a similar reaction. Or if I were to call people out for being aggressive, sarcastic and disrespectful to conservatives. Makes sense?
Please also read Inxheneu's comments about "entirely predictable drama" about and please tell me if it strikes some kind of chord with you.
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