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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Feb 27, 2016 9:50:46 GMT -6
Checking IPs would actually be more of a risk to people, I think. Well, it's not some precise check to figure one's adress or anything... Just a mundane check whether IP is used by more than one people, or whether it doesn't fit the country of residence written in the profile. I admit, though, some people might use Tor or proxies, which adds complexity.
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Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN
Puisne Justice; Chancellor of the Royal Talossan Bar; Cunstaval to Florencia
Dame & Former Seneschal
Posts: 1,157
Talossan Since: 4-5-2010
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN on Feb 27, 2016 10:38:48 GMT -6
This is a thread for a bill intended to address some recent obvious issues. Specifically, I want to create a bill that will (a) ensure that Talossa does not become associated with or a safe haven for some of the worst sorts of people, and (b) allow for the country to put some sort of distance between Talossa and those sorts of people (once they're found out). This is not a final draft, and this is intended as a jumping-off point to work out a final bill. I am currently not an MZ, so any actual bill will receive its own new thread at the start of the next Cosa. The main issue with Part 1 is the privacy thing, I think, and that might need some hard consideration about how to handle it. And I know that Part 2 might get a lot of argument, and that's okay. I want to be clear that this wouldn't strip any current citizens of citizenship (not that this would be possible from this sort of statute, anyway). Again, it's a jumping-off point. Thoughts and comments and contributions are very welcome, particularly on the third part, which is undone until I figure out a legal mechanism for procedural "inactivity" Part 1Lex.E.2, which currently states 2. The Minister of Interior shall ascertain to his own satisfaction, through correspondence or conversation, that the prospective immigrant is a real human being with genuine interest in becoming a citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa. The Minister shall be free to inquire of the applicant on any and every subject, and shall be required to collect the name, postal address, telephone number, and e-mail address(es) of the candidate, which information the Minister shall communicate to the Secretary of State. Additionally, the Interior Minister shall be required to collect an essay, written by the applicant, entitled "Why I am Interested in Becoming a Talossan."shall be amended to read 2. The Minister of Interior shall ascertain to his own satisfaction, through correspondence or conversation, that the prospective immigrant is a real human being with genuine interest in becoming a citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa. 2.1. The Minister shall be free to inquire of the applicant on any and every subject, and shall be required to collect the name, postal address, telephone number, and e-mail address(es) of the candidate, which information the Minister shall communicate to the Secretary of State. 2.2. The Minister shall be required to collect an essay, written by the applicant, entitled "Why I am Interested in Becoming a Talossan." 2.3. The Minister shall be required to ask the prospective immigrant to disclose any history of serious crime to the Minister, including but not limited to murder, violent assault, sexual assault, or other felonious conduct. The Minister shall not disclose this information to the public under penalty of five years of civil disability from all offices, but may choose to halt the immigration process at this time based on the prospective immigrant's responses and the Minister's best judgment about whether the prospective immigrant would present a serious risk to any citizens or to the reputation of the nation.Firstly, the Minister at the moment has the power to inquire about an applicant's criminal record, a simple addition to the application form asking "Have you ever been convicted of a serious crime (list etc...)" is well within the Minister's powers atm and is a simpler option than clogging the immigration law. Part 2Lex.E.1, which currently states 1. Prospective immigrants who will be age fourteen or older by the next regularly scheduled Balloting Day shall be directed to the Minister of Interior. The Minister of Interior shall act on every such request received by that office, without discriminating on the basis of age, political preference, religion, or other personal information.shall be amended to read 1. Prospective immigrants who will be age eighteen or older by the next regularly scheduled Balloting Day shall be directed to the Minister of Interior. The Minister of Interior shall act on every such request received by that office, without discriminating on the basis of age, political preference, religion, or other personal information. I'm not sure how this can be brought in without running afoul of the OrgLaw and the Second Covenant, especially since the OrgLaw defines a adult citizen as one over the age of 14.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Feb 27, 2016 10:42:15 GMT -6
Speaking of genuine prospectives - I think I can attribute to this conversation. There were two prospectives not so far ago: Joshua Shoeman-Grey and Seamus Tobanney. Joshua behaved very suspiciously and was rightly driven out of Talossa. I too think he was fraudulent, though not very intelligent in his story. Seamus Tobanney was me. I admit I did an ESB here, because I wanted to understand is our imm system still fragile after the ESB affair. I know this sounds bad, but to justify myself I'll say that I never intended to actually get past this process: I ceased any Seamus activity and returned to my true account. I didn't really know how to share experience I've gathered, but I think now is the right time. I wasnt caught and that dissatisfied me. But now that we disciss bad immigrators, I have some things to point out. Trust is good, but now we see we have to be more cautious. I made a very solid life story for Seamus, and everyone beleived me by default. My story went even more convincing compared to Joshua's, who was promptly considered a liar. I wanted to know if a good backstory enough to trick Talossa - and it is. I could be catched. My weird English. My nonexistent college course. My name which isnt anywhere on the net but this forum. And most importantly, my IP, which is Russian and even more, identical to Soleighlfred's. I could be caught but I wasn't, and that,s the problem. Our Immigration ministry fails to fix the immigration procedure (I had to specifically email Talossans to get in), then it fails to check people's story. I'm sure that if I continued, Seamus would be granted citizenship, and who knows what such a masked man could have in mind. I think it has to be MinImm's job to filter people properly. It could be done without ID scans. Check people's IP. If an Irish man has a Russian IP - ask why. Mind you, if someone wants to do harm, he would be very cautious in his fraud. If I wanted to harm Talossa, I would make a convincing story, not some Joshua-style rubbish. And that story, as of today, would pass. There's no way to fully defend us, but Seamus would be caught, if we had a good system of prospective checking. So my opinion, based on my experience is: Talossan immigration system is still fragile. Actually, you almost were caught. I alerted the Interior Ministry that the IP address was Russian, not from Ireland. We were investigating the prospective/you when he/you fell off the radar.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Feb 27, 2016 10:45:28 GMT -6
Also, as I was suspicious and I was the justice that blocked Shoeman-Gray, I was seriously also considering blocking Seamus. I was suspicious from the beginning.
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Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN
Puisne Justice; Chancellor of the Royal Talossan Bar; Cunstaval to Florencia
Dame & Former Seneschal
Posts: 1,157
Talossan Since: 4-5-2010
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN on Feb 27, 2016 10:50:55 GMT -6
Speaking of genuine prospectives - I think I can attribute to this conversation. There were two prospectives not so far ago: Joshua Shoeman-Grey and Seamus Tobanney. Joshua behaved very suspiciously and was rightly driven out of Talossa. I too think he was fraudulent, though not very intelligent in his story. Seamus Tobanney was me. I admit I did an ESB here, because I wanted to understand is our imm system still fragile after the ESB affair. I know this sounds bad, but to justify myself I'll say that I never intended to actually get past this process: I ceased any Seamus activity and returned to my true account. I didn't really know how to share experience I've gathered, but I think now is the right time. I wasnt caught and that dissatisfied me. But now that we disciss bad immigrators, I have some things to point out. Trust is good, but now we see we have to be more cautious. I made a very solid life story for Seamus, and everyone beleived me by default. My story went even more convincing compared to Joshua's, who was promptly considered a liar. I wanted to know if a good backstory enough to trick Talossa - and it is. I could be catched. My weird English. My nonexistent college course. My name which isnt anywhere on the net but this forum. And most importantly, my IP, which is Russian and even more, identical to Soleighlfred's. I could be caught but I wasn't, and that,s the problem. Our Immigration ministry fails to fix the immigration procedure (I had to specifically email Talossans to get in), then it fails to check people's story. I'm sure that if I continued, Seamus would be granted citizenship, and who knows what such a masked man could have in mind. I think it has to be MinImm's job to filter people properly. It could be done without ID scans. Check people's IP. If an Irish man has a Russian IP - ask why. Mind you, if someone wants to do harm, he would be very cautious in his fraud. If I wanted to harm Talossa, I would make a convincing story, not some Joshua-style rubbish. And that story, as of today, would pass. There's no way to fully defend us, but Seamus would be caught, if we had a good system of prospective checking. So my opinion, based on my experience is: Talossan immigration system is still fragile. I would encourage you to speak to the A-X, Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN, asap. What you did (despite whatever reasoning, rightly or wrongly you had) is a crime under A.16 of El Lexhatx. If you wish to prove a point, I advise you work constructively within the law rather than breaking it. EDIT: Not including wasting the time of the Minister and others, including myself who took time to reply to your email and follow up with the Government on your behalf as to why your application hadn't been answered.
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Feb 27, 2016 10:52:14 GMT -6
Also, as I was suspicious and I was the justice that blocked Shoeman-Gray, I was seriously also considering blocking Seamus. I was suspicious from the beginning. I was unaware of that serious work behind the curtains then. I must admit I'm impressed, and I think I have to take back my criticism on those who are in charge of immigration process (though, the application form part still needs fixing!) You must have been actually suspecting me, then, because I'm the only Russian citizen. I wonder why I wasn't contacted.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Feb 27, 2016 10:57:16 GMT -6
Also, as I was suspicious and I was the justice that blocked Shoeman-Gray, I was seriously also considering blocking Seamus. I was suspicious from the beginning. I was unaware of that serious work behind the curtains then. I must admit I'm impressed, and I think I have to take back my criticism on those who are in charge of immigration process (though, the application form part still needs fixing!) You must have been actually suspecting me, then, because I'm the only Russian citizen. I wonder why I wasn't contacted. Dame Litz is correct. You need to speak with Dame Miestra. I'd also advise you to not talk further on this subject until you do.
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Feb 27, 2016 11:09:57 GMT -6
Thank you for your advice, I will.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Feb 27, 2016 13:26:16 GMT -6
>_< Yes, Alexandreu has just gotten in touch.
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Feb 27, 2016 17:20:25 GMT -6
Also, as I was suspicious and I was the justice that blocked Shoeman-Gray, I was seriously also considering blocking Seamus. I was suspicious from the beginning. I was unaware of that serious work behind the curtains then. I must admit I'm impressed, and I think I have to take back my criticism on those who are in charge of immigration process (though, the application form part still needs fixing!) You must have been actually suspecting me, then, because I'm the only Russian citizen. I wonder why I wasn't contacted. It's true. I was even more suspicious after your first message though when I was your TalossAssisstant, but I was going to wait to see how you responded before I did anything. When you fell off the radar, there wasn't any need to do anything. I will also say, with regards to the application form problems, that has been a continuous work in progress behind the scenes for my entire term in office as well. Not to mention the numerous behind the scenes work that the Interior Ministry does solving Immigration concerns on a near daily basis.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Mar 20, 2016 16:58:56 GMT -6
Where are we on this?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Mar 20, 2016 17:19:44 GMT -6
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Mar 21, 2016 12:17:40 GMT -6
My apologies for not being clear. I was not referring to the Soleighlfred case. I am referring to legislative efforts to solve the apparent issues related to Canungate. All party leaders signed a letter promising the Talossan people that it would be our first Act once the Ziu reconvenes.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 21, 2016 12:28:13 GMT -6
My apologies for not being clear. I was not referring to the Soleighlfred case. I am referring to legislative efforts to solve the apparent issues related to Canungate. All party leaders signed a letter promising the Talossan people that it would be our first Act once the Ziu reconvenes. It hasn't.
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Post by Breneir Itravilatx on Mar 21, 2016 12:33:10 GMT -6
My apologies for not being clear. I was not referring to the Soleighlfred case. I am referring to legislative efforts to solve the apparent issues related to Canungate. All party leaders signed a letter promising the Talossan people that it would be our first Act once the Ziu reconvenes. It hasn't. We are nearing a reconvening with most parties having designated MZs. Further, this does not prevent us from placing bills in the hopper or continuing to debate bills already in the hopper. I have seen a couple of additional bills placed in the hopper on other issues and I wanted to reconfirm other party's commitment to resolving this important outstanding issue as the people of Talossa were promised.
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