Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Jan 8, 2016 15:31:55 GMT -6
Our discussions here are … well, interesting.
If we are going to debate usefully, then – rather than just using argumentum ad hominem and tu quoque and I don’t like what you said last time – then we need to stick to just the suggested actions and the proposed policies. Not “you want to do that because your grandmother smells of raspberries, and I didn’t trust you last time” but “such-and-such (my policy) is better than such-and-such (your policy) because the future concrete results of each would be such-and-such because of such-and-such”.
In other words, argue just the case, not the person.
For example “I believe that the party registration fee should be raised to $500 in order to dissuade casual intervention” against “I believe that the party registration fee should be reduce to just $1 in order to open up the Cosa to a wider range of influence” – is acceptable: this disagreement in policies can then be opened to a general discussion, and (possibly) used as part of the electoral promises of each candidate. But “I believe (etc.) to $500 because you are a fool, and I haven’t forgiven you for your bad temper” versus “You horrible brat, you know that $1 would allow the many people who criticise you to come and stamp on your stupid, cowardly head...” is not acceptable – it does not help in the slightest, and merely increases the heat without increasing the light.
So gentlemen, ladies, knight, counts, citizens – and whatever else rank we legitimately have here – let’s stick to just the policies, and not the personalities, eh?
Better Jaw, Jaw than, War, War.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 8, 2016 15:50:12 GMT -6
Oh, okay. Here are the policies:
- We need an active and competent government team, which only the FreeDems have. The RUMP only have two active members and the ModRads have not covered themselves with glory in the recent government. - The King is out of control and only the FreeDems can be trusted to bring him under control, rather than knuckling under to no-change because The Sacred Monarchy.
Any other questions?
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on Jan 8, 2016 16:11:18 GMT -6
No more questions right now, thank you - but let me give all the readers of this thread an example of what not to do:
The Porpoise and the Hair Twice upon a time there was a whale – well, I really wanted a big fish in this story, but sharks are not popular, so... Anyway, this wail wanted to ruin a marathon (OK so far?), so they entered the O-lymphatic games, which were being held in January. Well, the bald bawled, and in fury stamped off (but that’s hard to do in the Atlantic, so they swamped off instead). And what happened to this Wales, boyo? I’ll tell you, yes, that I will. Their language was ruined, and there was no Fat Tuesday (and for all the ignorant amongst you – and that’s all of you over there – that’s Mardi Gras). That’s what you get when rabbits interfere and hare among you. And it’s five hundred dollars, if you please.
Not helpful, and not good logic, eh?
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Jan 8, 2016 16:17:53 GMT -6
The Porpoise and the Hair made me ponder, and was quite amusing at that, too. Very odd combination, which I happen to like!
And, also, Sir Philosopher, I think you may be right. So I'll try to be more... civilised and factual than I have been these last few days.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jan 8, 2016 16:56:54 GMT -6
Our discussions here are … well, interesting.
If we are going to debate usefully, then – rather than just using argumentum ad hominem and tu quoque and I don’t like what you said last time – then we need to stick to just the suggested actions and the proposed policies. Not “you want to do that because your grandmother smells of raspberries, and I didn’t trust you last time” but “such-and-such (my policy) is better than such-and-such (your policy) because the future concrete results of each would be such-and-such because of such-and-such”.
In other words, argue just the case, not the person.
For example “I believe that the party registration fee should be raised to $500 in order to dissuade casual intervention” against “I believe that the party registration fee should be reduce to just $1 in order to open up the Cosa to a wider range of influence” – is acceptable: this disagreement in policies can then be opened to a general discussion, and (possibly) used as part of the electoral promises of each candidate. But “I believe (etc.) to $500 because you are a fool, and I haven’t forgiven you for your bad temper” versus “You horrible brat, you know that $1 would allow the many people who criticise you to come and stamp on your stupid, cowardly head...” is not acceptable – it does not help in the slightest, and merely increases the heat without increasing the light.
So gentlemen, ladies, knight, counts, citizens – and whatever else rank we legitimately have here – let’s stick to just the policies, and not the personalities, eh?
Better Jaw, Jaw than, War, War. I overwhelmingly and wholeheartedly agree. Far too often, discussions over policy are derailed by personal attacks, aspersions on others' motives, outright mockery, and other distractions. It's not good for Talossa... and it's not good for the people involved! Specific policy proposals are really important, especially since they get us past the tribalism that can otherwise strangle our thinking -- a serious danger in a partisan democracy! Some of the most important ones to the RUMP are: ID Cards - We should resume issuing ID cards to interested citizens, charging a nominal amount to cover the cost of postage and production. TalossaWare - We should open and restock TalossaWare, and take steps to promote Talossa-themed goods on social media and Wittenberg. Social Media and Websites - Since our web presence is so important, it should be a top priority of any Government: we should be using our Facebook, Twitter, and other accounts, actively posting on them on a regular basis. We should also work on building a subreddit. Every appointee should be explicitly expected to take the necessary steps to update contact information. Use Our Assets - We should begin promoting the sale of stamps to Talossa and to the wider philatelist community, and set aside the proceeds in a separate fund for a second issue someday. There's thousands of stamps that could be raising money and spreading the word about the country. Donations - We should publicly solicit patriotic donations once per year for the span of a week (or on a similar non-annoying schedule), now that that approach is an official part of our budget. Accountability - The Civil Service Committee should meet publicly, with parties held accountable when their members delay the process with absences. Census - We should run another census! And so on. But concrete policy things like these often get ignored, with people turning to negativity instead. I hope that the campaign to come focuses on "the case, not the person," as you have suggested. We need more light, and less heat!
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 8, 2016 17:11:02 GMT -6
You see, here's a problem. Of the "policy proposals" that AD lists above, the Free Dems agree with each and every one of them.
So the difference between the parties is not on these policies, but on who has the personnel and the reputation to be trusted to enact them? I repeat that the RUMP doesn't have the personnel, and the ModRads (based on recent months) don't have the reputation.
And there's an additional factor brought in by the King's regrettable behaviour over the last six months, but we've already rehearsed how the parties stand on that.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 8, 2016 17:15:53 GMT -6
As to reputation: yes, I have an eccentric and pugnacious demeanour, and I know that I'm not particularly likeable (a combination of a general suspicious nature coming from my difficult childhood and a lack of patience with social niceties coming from what some people suggest is a very mild case of ASD). But as my FreeDem colleagues will tell you, I got the job as leader despite that because I have a track record of activity and competence. So one of our slogans may well be: Love Her Or Hate Her, And You Probably Hate Her: Miestrâ Schivâ Gets Things Done.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jan 8, 2016 17:25:07 GMT -6
You see, here's a problem. Of the "policy proposals" that AD lists above, the Free Dems agree with each and every one of them. Excellent! This is extremely good to hear, and I look forward to seeing these policies put into place... no matter who wins in the next election! See, this is why these sorts of issue-driven discussions are valuable! I seriously and honestly had no idea that the FDT endorsed ID cards, conducting a census promptly, or any of the like. A lot of those things had never been mentioned in the FDT documents I've ever seen... it's extremely cool that the RUMP not only won't have any opposition in these policy planks, but instead the support of other parties like the FDT. Some of these things I was worried about, in terms of controversiality -- like the IDs and public Civil Service Committee meetings -- so this is good news. I'm not really going to touch on the rest of that stuff about my party and the MRPT, since the whole point of this thread is discussion of policies and not... well, what Justice Tamoran characterized as “ I believe (etc.) to $500 because you are a fool, and I haven’t forgiven you for your bad temper” versus “ You horrible brat, you know that $1 would allow the many people who criticise you to come and stamp on your stupid, cowardly head...” is not acceptable – it does not help in the slightest, and merely increases the heat without increasing the light. Knowing that the FDT endorses that entire slate of RUMP policies and will enact them... well, I can hardly give better service to RUMP voters than that! So I am satisfied, and I'm going to instead heed to the welcome call to stick to just the policies, and not the personalities, eh? If there is a policy proposal to discuss, though, I would be completely down for it!
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jan 8, 2016 17:30:45 GMT -6
You are both not very good at this, aren't you?
(Neither am I, I'm afraid. I'm in the annoying position of in theory fully agreeing with everything Ian said, but not acting like it. I guess that's a case of cognitive dissonance or something like that.) I'll try to improve, but admittedly this is not a good start.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jan 8, 2016 17:33:51 GMT -6
Gluc, seriously... I didn't say a darn word about the people involved in any party, really deliberately, and refused to take the bait otherwise! This "pox on both your houses" thing is nonsense... I just put up a whole list of exactly specific policy proposals, most of them very concrete ones about real things to do. And I would be freakin' delighted if someone wanted to talk about them! I can't control anyone else's reaction, believe me.
*sigh*
This is frustrating, sometimes. I think policy is really interesting. I think process is really interesting. I love to work with other legislators to try to find common points of policy where both groups can advance their goals. But I can't help other people, and it's definitely not fair to paint us with the same brush.
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Jan 8, 2016 18:20:16 GMT -6
How do you know that you are debating issues instead of doing power politics?
The number 1 Issue politics guy in the Kingdom (that's me) likes every single post in it, even Gluc complaining!
Keep it up folks! Yes, it could be better.
For example:
About Social Media presence, does anyone have a plan to achieve it?
About Wittenberg, in the next few months, Telecomna should come alive, do we want to move Wittenberg at the same time as per my plan in the past?
About the Cabinet, Miestra says the RUMP doesn't have the people, can she list a few names of people she would put in her cabinet and which position they would occupy (I know, it might be preliminary and too early)?
Can AD reply on his plan to fill his own cabinet?
Does either party have a stance on the Talossan Coin project?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 8, 2016 21:11:51 GMT -6
About Social Media presence, does anyone have a plan to achieve it? I'll get a statement from our STUFF spokesperson... once we finalise who that is. Yes. YES. This is the centerpiece of our campaign - a cross-party Shadow Cabinet under FreeDems leadership announced in advance, so the people know what their FreeDem vote gets them in terms of government. We are still waiting for one or two very important portfolios to be confirmed, but that should be available at the same time as our Cosâ list, i.e. Tuesday. The FreeDems will nominate a special outside-Cabinet official in charge of Getting Coins Done And Nothing Else. Should be able to announce that Tuesday as well.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 8, 2016 21:14:49 GMT -6
I'll repeat - I actually think that in terms of Government administration, there is a very broad social consensus about What Needs To Be Done. The election is about who do we trust to do them - and sadly also about how to deal with recent Royal overreach.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jan 8, 2016 21:51:36 GMT -6
About Social Media presence, does anyone have a plan to achieve it? Sure. It's all about accountability. When running Beric'ht Talossan I found out pretty quickly that deadlines are the end-all and be-all if you want to make sure things get done. I'll appoint officials and ask them to stay active with specific ennumerated targets for activity. There's always a lot going on, and when people have specific goals, they understand their expectations. This sort of leadership is key to getting good results from people... week after week! About Wittenberg, in the next few months, Telecomna should come alive, do we want to move Wittenberg at the same time as per my plan in the past? Basically nothing should happen to Wittenberg except that we'll ask King John to lock some of the boards -- the Ziu and Cort and such. Those official functions will go to the new Telecomuna. Meanwhile, Witt will continue to be the social place, along with whatever other social places pop up. Because Telecomuna will emphatically not serve as a focal point for socialization, but only official matters, we'll finally have that separation of public and private Wittenberg boards. This is something I have been bothered by for many years, and I'll be really glad to see it happen. I think it will be good for the social life of Talossa, good for the official boards on Telecomuna that will now be moderated by their own appointed/elected leaders, and good for Wittenberg to continue its traditional role. My one worry is that we might lose cohesion by sacrificing our current super-board and going to two main boards (or more), but if it turns out to be a bad idea... well, we can just reverse it! Shout out to our Seneschal, CCX, who worked with me on a plan that made this possible. No answer on the other two things about people, since this thread has been established emphatically as a place to talk about policy and proposals. But I'll start a RUMP campaign thread pretty soon, and you can ask those there again, if you want Sorry, but I really strongly respect Justice Tamoran's intentions here... let's keep this about these specific policies, and put personnel questions elsewhere. Does either party have a stance on the Talossan Coin project? Well, the designs on the coins were finalized and put into law under the RUMP. Having looked at where we are now, I am confident that real progress could be made -- not just another poll or whatever -- within a month of taking office. Make the final decision and you can get a Kickstarter set up in short order, with a solid goal and some stretch goals. Looping in some prominent Talossans for the stretch goals would be a great thing... I bet people would donate extra money to see His Majesty shave his beard or something! Minting could begin in several months, depending on whether or not there were any problems with the die (there shouldn't be, since this is a pretty common thing, but we wouldn't want to over-promise. I have lots of solid plans like these on all of these policy proposals... ask more!
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 8, 2016 22:02:25 GMT -6
VOTE MIESTRÂ FOR CONCISE ANSWERS
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