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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Dec 20, 2015 15:38:24 GMT -6
I'm saddened though not surprised; I wonder to what extent this was a decision reached by individuals involved and to what extent this is the result of pressure from the wider party.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Dec 20, 2015 15:39:22 GMT -6
So did the PM ask Lüc if the minister of stuff could be replaced before attacking him publicly? (Im not in the government, so I cant see your discussions)
Edit: I see the PM is here now, so my question is for him really.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Dec 20, 2015 15:46:08 GMT -6
We discussed it in the party of course, but no one pressured them to take this decision AFAIK. I didnt get the impression that either of them felt pressured either.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 20, 2015 15:49:21 GMT -6
Charlie's here, and I'm sure he's reading your wildly inaccurate speech in the Ziu as we speak; but can I point out that I don't think the Seneschál ever complained publicly about the complete disappearance of the Minister of Stuff? (He complained loudly and regularly in Government and FreeDem forums, of course.)
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Dec 20, 2015 15:54:06 GMT -6
I have never been asked if the PM could replace the Minister of STUFF for his inactivity, but (both now and then) my answer would have been "Sure, if Sevastain is willing to step back, I could ask Ian Platschisch to substitute him, but I'm willing to hear any alternatives you might have.".
To assume that a coalition government is only balanced by ministerial posts is plainly wrong. We didn't request Breneir to be removed from the Cabinet when he left the MRPT thus reducing the number of MRPT ministers.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Dec 20, 2015 15:54:37 GMT -6
Oh, seems you are right about that. I'm sorry. I was confusing his statement with those of other FDTers. He did complain about the FDT being weighed down by the other parties though and then mentioned the only two other non FDT ministers as an exception (Breneir and Luc), leaving only the minister of stuff.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Dec 20, 2015 15:59:42 GMT -6
your wildly inaccurate speech What exactly is wildly inaccurate about it? My main points I think were: - The government has done some good things, but not as much as wed hoped. - The MRPT has not been as active as we had hoped - I dont believe the FDT narrative that everything is the MRPT's or the Progs fault - The PM is not giving the impression that he still believes in this government - The resignation of Luc and Ian is understandable, considering the remarks of the PM and other FDTers - The resignation of Luc and Ian is not likely to improve the performance of the government. All of these things seem accurate to me
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 20, 2015 16:08:26 GMT -6
That's truly epic levels of inaccuracy. It rates a 0.7 davinescùns on the Sheer Bullshit scale, far into the critical zone! Right until Charlie was overwhelmed by extra-Talossan affairs a few weeks ago, he was pretty much working 7 days a week in Talossa, in my experience. And Lüc pretty much disappeared for the past month or two, as a mere squint at his Witt posting record proves.
Well, if the rumours are true and that he will be replaced now that the ModRads have broken the Coalition, then we'll all see what can be done in the less than two months before the next Cosâ sits.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Dec 20, 2015 16:21:32 GMT -6
So theres two things you disagree with. Again, I cannot see whats going on behind the scenes, so Im only talking about public activity related to the government, and in that sense Ive not seen a lot from the PM. If you think this is epicly inaccurate, I will explain myself a bit further when I have more time.
With regards to minstuff, nothing prevented anyone in the FDT from helping him earlier. Hes said from the start that he was busy and asked for help repeatedly. But Im sure the elections coming up is a better motivation.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 20, 2015 16:40:28 GMT -6
So theres two things you disagree with. Again, I cannot see whats going on behind the scenes Well, you see, you've just trapped yourself. Firstly you complain about Charlie and other Free Democrats criticising the ModRads in public. Then you claim you don't really know what was going on in private, because Charlie didn't complain publicly about the ball-dropping! Which is it? Did Charlie criticise the ModRads in public? Or was there no way to know what was going on in the Cabinet because you weren't told? The two are mutually exclusive. As for me, I was privy to all discussions, and I know that Charlie was pretty damn vocal about his growing impatience with the growing non-existence of the ModRad Ministers. But out of Cabinet solidarity, we didn't publicly complain, because we knew you'd probably throw a tantrum like this and break the Coalition.Your claims that Pinátsch was repeatedly "begging for help which was not given" seem extremely vague, I don't remember any such thing, and I'm not sure how they are supposed to impact the current argument. If it happened, are you saying that excuses him simply walking away from his job and not telling anyone?
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Dec 20, 2015 16:53:03 GMT -6
Huh, I dont see those two things as mutually exclusive. The first thing is undoubtedly true, an a bit of an understatement as well, the second thing is mostly, but not entirely true, but for the sake of argument Im willing to accept that it is just true. So what exactly would have been the problem with breaking the coalition, considering others were weighing you down? In the end you've essentially achieved the same anyway, but without taking responsibility for it yourself. I wonder though, if its all the fault of Prog/MRPT ministers, but Luc and Breneir are an exception and the comments werent meant for Ian either, so that essentially leaves Sev, why not ask Luc to replace him? I mean, you assume that this would break the coalition and all this unprovoked partisan rhetoric wouldnt, but you could have just asked, right? Or are you saying Luc isnt telling the truth? Again, I cant prove what Sev has said to anyone privately, but I was referring to several of his public statements, most recently here: talossa.proboards.com/thread/10528/talossa-portal-open?page=5
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Dec 20, 2015 16:55:32 GMT -6
No one is denying that the performance of the MRPT Ministers were less than expected. The MRPT is told to recognize the flaws in its own party; but we repeatedly have. We know the Ministry of STUFF was inactive, we know that the coin project is going slowly. We deserve and accept some of the blame.
But not all of it. The MRPT has made notable achievements for the coalition, while some Freedem projects have floundered or failed. It is disengenuous to claim that only the MRPT has had problems, though to be clear I recognize and appreciate the contributions of individual FreeDems.
A coalition can't survive if one party consistently pins all blame on another. It doesn't matter if the blame is deserved or not; coalitions are founded on trust. The absence of that trust prompted me, and the MRPT as a whole, to vote against confidence and resign.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Dec 20, 2015 17:03:20 GMT -6
Dama Schiva, do mean to say you did not trust the MRPT enough to even ask Luc to replace Sev? Because this is a manifestation of the trust issue I was talking about.
Why would you form a coalition with a party you don't trust to act decently? And why would that party then want to support you?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 20, 2015 18:46:12 GMT -6
On the issue of replacing Sev, I am simply repeating what the Seneschál told the FreeDem caucus, so maybe he can speak for himself.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Dec 22, 2015 5:08:17 GMT -6
I was very clear in the Cabinet about who was pulling their weight and who was not, and that's all I'll say on the matter; the decision was not taken by the appropriate member of the Cabinet to replace an MRPT Minister.
As to Gluc's outrage... I'm really not following his argument very well. He seems to be both complaining that I wasn't vocally denouncing the Moderate Radicals whilst at the same time me doing so now. He also seems to accept that the Moderate Radicals were largely inactive whilst simultaneously rejecting this 'narrative' that their inactivity had anything to do with this government not achieving our goals. Of course, he's in part right: it wasn't all their inactivity: in part it felt as though the inability of their ministers to communicate what their party was up to, and to communicate our legislative agenda to their own party did us in somewhat too. Less damning a point, but I suppose in that sense Gluc is right.
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