|
Post by Eðo Grischun on Aug 22, 2015 19:52:05 GMT -6
Is it time for a constitutional convention?
It seems to me that the cross section of the Talossan mindset no longer seems to marry up with the Organic Law. Every few weeks there is a new major discussion and it always boils down to the OrgLaw just not fitting the overall will and mindset of the population.
I'm coming to think the document might be a little outdated for the current Talossan state of affairs.
|
|
Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 22, 2015 20:54:26 GMT -6
The Organic Law is 18 years old, and it's age is starting to show. For example; are there really still Talossans who don't have internet, and solely correspond through mail? There could be, but I doubt it. It was also written at a time when no one even considered the possibility of el Lexhatx, and, if we are going to go through the trouble of shifting parts of the OrgLaw into el Lexhatx, we may as well revamp the entire thing.
If amendments are getting proposed every Clark, it's a pretty good sign that the OrgLaw is no longer functioning well.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Aug 22, 2015 21:08:53 GMT -6
I would argue that it does need some things taken out of it; a lot of recent amendments have been to things that probably could just be statutory law. Election law is one of these things, although that needs to be carefully sorted out and not just ejected wholesale into el Lexhatx. Other things have been for real and excellent changes, like The Don't Be a Dictator Amendment or Judicial Merry-Go-Round Amendment. And of course, don't forget we have MPF, who has proposed something like... thirty amendments in the past couple of Cosas.
Honestly, I can't imagine coming up with a whole new document de novo that would be magically better and require fewer tweaks, nor do I see anything in the OrgLaw's basic principles or fundamental sureties that isn't just as needful today as always. Some of the most important parts (XVII.6, the Covenants) have been so excellent as to pass virtually unnoticed, while others (balance of powers stuff, royal succession) have been hard-fought battles which might have threatened the existence of the country had we not hammered them into shape.
A constitution isn't like a car, where you replace parts and fix flats, but eventually have to replace the body and engine (or else do such a thorough "repair" that it resembles the Ship of Achilles). It's more like a sourdough culture, where repeated use and care improves its character: the OrgLaw has just gotten better, stronger, and more suitable to us over the years. Or a wiki website, where people work on it and make each aspect of it a little better every year.
|
|
Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
|
Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Aug 22, 2015 23:51:55 GMT -6
The ZRT has supported a Constitutional Convention for ages, where everything will be on the table. Including the RUMP's favourite topic...
|
|
|
Post by Françal Ian Lux on Aug 23, 2015 9:31:23 GMT -6
I would also advocate for a Constitutional Convention. Patch works by amendments won't do anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Aug 23, 2015 10:05:06 GMT -6
I concur in that we need to overhaul and re-do our constitution. It is neither adequate, nor useful for Talossa anymore.
|
|
Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
|
Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Aug 23, 2015 10:13:30 GMT -6
While I cannot envision the chaos that would accompany a full-fledged constitutional convention, I do believe that there are good, even great elements to our current constitution as well as some areas that could be tightened up. I envision a constitution similar in length to the US Constitution with perhaps amendments not actually modifying the wording of the original document but becoming supplemental to it.
|
|
Gaglhen Fortaleça
Citizen of Talossa
Glory to the Proletariat
Posts: 394
Talossan Since: 4-23-2015
|
Post by Gaglhen Fortaleça on Aug 23, 2015 12:09:45 GMT -6
Is there even a doubt that the TSP isn't all for this?
|
|
Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 23, 2015 12:45:37 GMT -6
Many articles seem like they could be combined, with extraneous bits moved to el Lexhatx. Here are some combination ideas, but they are my own opinions:
Everything to do with the Cosa: 7,8,13,14 Everything to do with the Senate: 4,5 Everything to do with Government Leaders: 11,12 Everything to do with Lawmaking: 9, 10, 20
Using these combos, we could eliminate 7 articles.
Question...Does the Declaration of Independence need to be in the Constitution? I feel it should be it's own document entirely.
|
|
Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
|
Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Aug 23, 2015 17:40:52 GMT -6
Wow, given those numbers in the polls, it might be time for a proposal for a ConCom to be put to referendum.
|
|
Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
|
Post by Glüc da Dhi on Aug 26, 2015 17:12:52 GMT -6
Would a constitutional convention require commitment to the result in advance? If not, I guess it could be done, and it wouldnt even require a referendum (And even if you hold a referendum, you can't force those who oppose a new constituion to pass it, no matter what the result of the referendum). You just need 2/3rd of Senate and Cosa (and whoever else you want to include for the sake of legitimacy) to convene. I would most likely be a waste of time and energy, since I dont really see the RUMP (and others) agreeing to any serious change that could not be achieved by amendments otherwise. Theres a lot that can be improved, but I think the only change that is absolutely crucial is removing the Kings right to veto amendments. Still, a regular amendment seems a more efficient way to go about that.
I'm very doubtful a new constitution could be drafted that almost everyone would agree on. The current orglaw is not perfect, but at least its working.
With regards to the Monarchy, sure it could be on the table, but we are currently a monarchy, a large majority of the voters supports Monarchist parties, and any new constituion should require a supermajority in both houses, so unless multiple parties betray their voters very badly, the result of such a discussion would be obvious.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Aug 26, 2015 17:37:11 GMT -6
Not to mention the fact that even small changes to wording and process can take months and pages of debate. Designing a new one entirely would be a nightmare of chaos and shoggoths. Plus, the vast majority of Talossans have solemnly sworn to "support and uphold the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa," and presumably at least some of the people might take such matters seriously.
|
|
Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 26, 2015 17:42:10 GMT -6
As far as I'm concerned, we don't need to change any major concepts in the OrgLaw. Nothing could be on the table and I would be fine with it. What really needs to happen, though, is a consolidation. And, while amendment after amendment after amendment could be passed to ultimately accomplish this goal, it would be easier to do everything at once. As I've said, the OrgLaw was drafted before anyone even considered the possibility of el Lexhatx, but now that we do have it, we should take full advantage of it. The OrgLaw is meant to be simple and concise (and we all know it is not); el Lexhatx can handle the complexities.
I propose a mass exodus of non-essential material out of the Organic Law, without necessarily changing a single piece of content.
|
|
Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
|
Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 26, 2015 17:44:09 GMT -6
Plus, the vast majority of Talossans have solemnly sworn to "support and uphold the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa," and presumably at least some of the people might take such matters seriously. A simplified Organic law would encourage more people to read it, and thus actually know about the document they have sworn to protect
|
|
|
Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Aug 26, 2015 17:54:02 GMT -6
As far as I'm concerned, we don't need to change any major concepts in the OrgLaw. Nothing could be on the table and I would be fine with it. What really needs to happen, though, is a consolidation. And, while amendment after amendment after amendment could be passed to ultimately accomplish this goal, it would be easier to do everything at once. As I've said, the OrgLaw was drafted before anyone even considered the possibility of el Lexhatx, but now that we do have it, we should take full advantage of it. The OrgLaw is meant to be simple and concise (and we all know it is not); el Lexhatx can handle the complexities. I propose a mass exodus of non-essential material out of the Organic Law, without necessarily changing a single piece of content. I am in agreement for the most part -- there are several sections of the OrgLaw that could be simply shifted into statutory law. But other sections should probably be condensed, instead, with some specifics preserved and others moved into statute. Examples of various kinds might be: The Covenants should be preserved without alteration in their entirety; Org.XVIII should be condensed into a few sections of principles without specifics; and Org.IX could probably be moved almost entirely right into el Lexhatx's Title H. Plus, the vast majority of Talossans have solemnly sworn to "support and uphold the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa," and presumably at least some of the people might take such matters seriously. A simplified Organic law would encourage more people to read it, and thus actually know about the document they have sworn to protect That would definitely be wonderful!
|
|