Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on May 22, 2017 3:03:06 GMT -6
Imperial is the easier system to understand. Metric may be fine for scientific purposes, but if you need to know the size of an object without getting out a ruler, it's much easier to think in terms of Imperial units. Hold out two hands, palms up facing each other. That's roughly a foot. Make your thumb and index finger parallel to each other. That's an inch. What's the temperature outside? With Imperial, it's between 0-100 degrees F. With Celsius, it's between -17 and 37 degrees, and decimal places get relied upon a lot more. If you're cooking something, cups, quarts, and gallons are much easier than liters and milliliters. Imperial is better for everyday life. Not to mention it's the primary system of measurement for Talossan cestoûrs. Alas, this is factually incorrect on nearly every statement. The size of human hands - yes, even of Talossan human hands, varies widely. For example, I am a small man, but I can stretch 20 centimeters (8 inches). I have a friend who is rather larger, and he can stretch 30 centimeters. It is a human habit when holding out the hands in the manner described as placing them the distance apart of your nipples - and you already know how variable that is. In my case the "thumb and index finger" suggestion gives between 3 and a half and four centimeters, or (in old, outdated, measures) between 1.5 and 1.75 inches - and it's not constant. The temperature in the room as I type this is 21 C - and neither you nor I can actually feel a one-degree Fahrenheit change, and only just feel a one-degree Celsius change. No, we do not (in ordinary life) use decimal places in our temperatures, any more than USA inhabitants do. In cooking, "cups" is a count measure, not a volume measure - and excellent it is, too. It does not matter what size the cup is, as long as you use the same cup for all measures within one recipe when you come to make it. The relationship between cups and pints is only relevant when these two, separate, measures are used at the same time. In my kitchen (and, by the way, my wife is an excellent cook) we have metric scales and metric jugs. Cooks rarely use hyper-precise measurements - but they do use consistent measurements. Thus if (in the USA) you use cups, then you must - for safety - use only cups. Here in the UK we will pick up 250 grams of butter, measure out 500 grams of flour, mix in 750 millilitres of water and bake in an oven at 280 C. (You can tell that I am not a cook, as I don't know, by heart, a sensible recipe for anything - except bacon and eggs!). And these measures are no more convenient - or less convenient - than eight ounces of butter, 16 ounces of flour and a pint-and-a-quarter of water. (Um, can someone tell me the weight of an ounce, please? 28.35 grams? 31.1 grams? something else?). Cups, quarts and gallons are very definitely not easier than metric volume measures: to verify that I would ask "how many fluid ounces in a pint?" or "how many pints in a gallon?" - the answer depends upon where you live. Most people use metric. Only the USA, Liberia, and Myanmar use Imperial.
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on May 22, 2017 3:58:19 GMT -6
A system of measurement isn't based on how hard it is to convert it into another system of measurement.
Imperial system is easier. How tall is a skyscraper? 100 stories? What's a story defined as? (Edit: My point is that "stories" are used as ways for people to more easily "see" things in their mind. People don't think in abstract concepts; it's easier to see 100 feet than it is to see 30.48 meters. See my last post, and in particular, the link contained within.)
In the UK don't some people refer to some weight measurements in stones? And use Miles instead of Kilometers? Oh, and I'm glad no one uses that stupid "acre" measurement anymore other than the US to measure land--that'd be ridiculous!
Yes, the size of human hands vary (see Trump, Donald), and the size of thumbs and feet and everything else vary. But when I want to get general estimate of something? Like how far a distance is in feet without a measuring tape? I'll pace it off, with my feet. (Or perhaps stride, which is generally 3 feet or so.) I suppose if I grew up with a numerically based system I could generally guess my foot to be roughly 30.5 centimeters, then walk off an area, do some quick multiplication, and come up with a distance of oh 549 cm or 5.49 meters (wow, that was a very easy conversion! I understand now!). Or I could go back to that outdated method of measuring, say it is around 18 feet, or 6 yards.
I would hardly call Imperial an "old outdated" system of measurement when the country who prints the world's reserve currency uses it primarily. I'm glad that the measuring cup I just bought from Walmart that was shipped here from overseas doesn't only have metric units listed on the side of it.
Nonetheless, I'm done defending the system since I'm the only one, especially now its moot. I've enjoyed our little country trying to show our big neighbor that we are intelligently superior to their inferior ways. I mean, they should certainly follow our suit and spend probably many trillions of dollars over several generations to get their stubborn 300 million odd citizens spread over 3.79 million square miles (9.834 million square kilometers) to change their set in ways.
I've seriously wasted more time on this bill that I care to think about. Enjoy the one line change in El Lexhatx.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 22, 2017 5:30:45 GMT -6
A system of measurement isn't based on how hard it is to convert it into another system of measurement. Imperial system is easier. How tall is a skyscraper? 100 stories? What's a story defined as? In the UK don't some people refer to some weight measurements in stones? And use Miles instead of Kilometers? Oh, and I'm glad no one uses that stupid "acre" measurement anymore other than the US to measure land--that'd be ridiculous! Yes, the size of human hands vary (see Trump, Donald), and the size of thumbs and feet and everything else vary. But when I want to get general estimate of something? Like how far a distance is in feet without a measuring tape? I'll pace it off, with my feet. (Or perhaps stride, which is generally 3 feet or so.) I suppose if I grew up with a numerically based system I could generally guess my foot to be roughly 30.5 centimeters, then walk off an area, do some quick multiplication, and come up with a distance of oh 549 cm or 5.49 meters (wow, that was a very easy conversion! I understand now!). Or I could go back to that outdated method of measuring, say it is around 18 feet, or 6 yards. I would hardly call Imperial an "old outdated" system of measurement when the country who prints the world's reserve currency uses it primarily. I'm glad that the measuring cup I just bought from Walmart that was shipped here from overseas doesn't only have metric units listed on the side of it. Nonetheless, I'm done defending the system since I'm the only one, especially now its moot. I've enjoyed our little country trying to show our big neighbor that we are intelligently superior to their inferior ways. I mean, they should certainly follow our suit and spend probably many trillions of dollars over several generations to get their stubborn 300 million odd citizens spread over 3.79 million square miles (9.834 million square kilometers) to change their set in ways. I've seriously wasted more time on this bill that I care to think about. Enjoy the one line change in El Lexhatx. Why so much hate towards the Metric System? It makes you look very petty. Scientists all over the world exclusively use it.
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on May 22, 2017 7:10:10 GMT -6
A system of measurement isn't based on how hard it is to convert it into another system of measurement. Imperial system is easier. How tall is a skyscraper? 100 stories? What's a story defined as? A story is neither Imperial nor Metric: it is count noun. A USA story is the same as a UK story is the same as a Chinese story is the same as.... In the UK don't some people refer to some weight measurements in stones? And use Miles instead of Kilometers? Oh, and I'm glad no one uses that stupid "acre" measurement anymore other than the US to measure land--that'd be ridiculous! Quite right - it is ridiculous. And, as you have observed, it takes a long time to change - certainly one, and possibly two generations. "Old" people like me (I am 72 years old) tend to think first in Imperial, and then in Metric, I am slightly eccentric for someone of my age, in that I think in Metric (my wife thinks in Imperial). My children, however - aged 42 and 35 - think in Metric, but still understand Imperial - they understand it, but cannot quickly multiply by 12 or 1760 or divide by 3 or 16-and-a-half or 660 or... What they can do, however is multiply by 10 or 100 or 1000, and divide by those numbers too. I have no idea what my weight is in stone: I weigh between 50 and 51 kilograms, depending on whether I have eaten recently or not. Yes, the size of human hands vary (see Trump, Donald), and the size of thumbs and feet and everything else vary. But when I want to get general estimate of something? Like how far a distance is in feet without a measuring tape? I'll pace it off, with my feet. (Or perhaps stride, which is generally 3 feet or so.) I suppose if I grew up with a numerically based system I could generally guess my foot to be roughly 30.5 centimeters, then walk off an area, do some quick multiplication, and come up with a distance of oh 549 cm or 5.49 meters (wow, that was a very easy conversion! I understand now!). Or I could go back to that outdated method of measuring, say it is around 18 feet, or 6 yards. A mile is a thousand paces. A pace is from left heel to left heel. Hence a pace is 1.76 yards (roughly 1.75 yards) - at least, it was for the Roman army. I am (physically) shorter than you, and - by chance - have a Roman pace. When I want to make a very rough estimate of a distance I too use my pace, knowing that it does not, in any way, match yards or metres in round numbers. I don't need to divide by 2.54 or multiply by 30.48 - I just use the metres and centimeters, rather than the yards and inches. My house, built in 1983, is a certain number of feet wide, and a certain number of feet deep, and is on a patch of land sold to me in units of feet and yards. But when I sell this house and this land it will be expressed in metres - as that is now the standard. Even in 1983 the foundations were 3 metres deep (by law). I would hardly call Imperial an "old outdated" system of measurement when the country who prints the world's reserve currency uses it primarily. I'm glad that the measuring cup I just bought from Walmart that was shipped here from overseas doesn't only have metric units listed on the side of it. Opinion is, of course, opinion. That does not make it right and it does not make it wrong. The current reserve currency is irrelevant to time and distance measure: the bulk (the huge bulk) of the world's population, however, does affect the choice of sensible units of measure. We agree on the length of a second, do we not? Well, that is a metric definition, based upon the (metric) definition of a metre, and the (observed) speed of light. Or do I have that the wrong way round? No matter - time, distance and volume are all inter-related in the Metric system. Even mass is, too - though (currently) that is referred back to a particular piece of platinum-iridium in Paris. There is work afoot to remove even that last one-off reference, and replace the definition of the kilogram by the mass of a sphere of pure silicon of a particular size. Watch this space, as they say. Nonetheless, I'm done defending the system since I'm the only one, especially now its moot. I've enjoyed our little country trying to show our big neighbor that we are intelligently superior to their inferior ways. I mean, they should certainly follow our suit and spend probably many trillions of dollars over several generations to get their stubborn 300 million odd citizens spread over 3.79 million square miles (9.834 million square kilometers) to change their set in ways. Times change, as I say to you in the English language, from England - the country that invented the electronic computer, antibiotics, and the television, from a continent that invented the motor car and trial by jury and tonal polyphonic music and Classical sculpture, and inhabited by about 740 million people who have, within the last three generations, agreed to agree on units of measure - which did not cost trillions of dollars (neither in the USA sense of ten-to-the-twelve, nor the UK sense of ten-to-the-eighteen). Times change. Written at 13:09 UTS on 2017-05-22
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on May 22, 2017 10:14:35 GMT -6
Why so much hate towards the Metric System? It makes you look very petty. Scientists all over the world exclusively use it. Why is the issue non-debatable? Why is it a topic not worth discussion (especially here in a Hopper thread)? Your question demonstrates the pettiness of this bill. That people who push the Metric system think themselves to be superior, and that this bill will show just how intellectually superior we as Talossans are. === No, America shouldn't go metricwww.cnn.com/2015/06/05/opinions/marciano-america-go-metric/Should America Adopt the Metric System? A Brit's Takewww.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2014/05/should-america-adopt-metric-systemThis is the last post I'll make. I'm not going to change your minds, you certainly aren't going to change mine, and this very practical bill passed. I guess we've taught those ignorant Cestoûrs a lesson.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 22, 2017 13:34:16 GMT -6
Why so much hate towards the Metric System? It makes you look very petty. Scientists all over the world exclusively use it. Why is the issue non-debatable? Why is it a topic not worth discussion (especially here in a Hopper thread)? Your question demonstrates the pettiness of this bill. That people who push the Metric system think themselves to be superior, and that this bill will show just how intellectually superior we as Talossans are. I am sorry you are feeling as though your childishness were a carte-blanche for accusing everybody of everything. We are not trying to be superior, and we are not demanding that you stop debating. I am really annoyed by your accusing me/us of wanting to one-up those whatever-you-call-them United States of Americans with this bill. Now, you can continue debating, and throwing a tantrum, and being all put-up with Talossa, but the matter of the fact is that there was, up until now, a civilised discussion upon the matter where Senator Grischun was even convinced of the merits, and all went along amicably, in the proper Talossan way. The way you behave really seems... not like you, Senator. Maybe you are having a bad week, and in that case, I am sorry. But it does not give you the right to denigrate us, and the intentions of this bill.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on May 22, 2017 19:53:37 GMT -6
But that's the point: the Imperial system is based on arbitrary measures of people's body parts that happened to be convenient at the time they were codified. That may have suited people living a medieval village in rural England, but it doesn't help us now. I disagree entirely. It is absolutely easier to use the Imperial system than it is the metric system. Sure, the whole base unit system might seem easier to remember than 12 inches in a foot, etc., but try asking some random person on the street in the United States some simple question like how many millimeters there are in a meter, then ask them how many inches are in a yard. The fact is, people will much more easily grasp and remember what they are taught from a young age, regardless of what system it is. But ease of use still lies with the Imperial system, because again, it's much more easy to determine things based on those "arbitrary" measurements you mention than it is to guess off hand the measurement in a metric unit. (By the way, referring back to the "arbitrary" nature of its history doesn't negate its contemporary ease of use.) The people who need to use the metric system in the United States for their careers learn it. The people who don't need to use it don't need it. Cestoûrs use Imperial. Talossan law codifies Wisconsin law. Imperial is not only easier for everyday, but it's also used more everyday in Milwaukee. This bill, Hoppered two years ago, is still unnecessary, and if you ask me, is just a way to take another swipe at the "American" way of doing things. Interesting post here on the subject. I had no thought as to "taking a swipe" at America's everyday methods. I don't think we should immediately switch everything to metric and expect people to adapt quickly. While this could in hypothesis work on a limited scale, it could also cause widespread chaos and confusion. But that's not what I had in mind. Rather, what should happen is this: ASAP, kindergartens switch to using both metric and Imperial in equal frequency. Meanwhile, road signs and other public displays of measurement are changed so that metric and Imperial are both on them. As the kindergarteners progress, each grades' lessons have been pre-prepared to have both metric and Imperial. Then, after this generation has graduated, the next generation takes the same lessons. Then comes the masterstroke: the next generation of kids, whose great-grandparents are probably mostly deceased by now, have lessons only in metric. All public displays of measurement are then changed solely to metric. Ta-da! Now you have a fully metric-ized America, and only the "Imperialist" extremists can complain. BTW, it's not "indoctrination." Kids are perfectly allowed to switch back to Imperial. It'll just be harder, and the rest of the world still won't cater to them. I can say that there are many reasons to switch to metric: ease of overseas travel, helping business, especially industrial operations like car and chemical manufacture and equipment for space travel (the Apollo 13 incident was worsened in part by discrepancies in parts caused by non-conversions by Lockheed-Martin, who used the Imperial system for manufacturing, to metric measurements for NASA), and ease of use in vocations, especially in scientific disciplines and construction, carpentry, auto mechanics, etc. That's a lot of what powers the modern world. But if we're going to go by Wisconsin's laws, that's fine.
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on May 22, 2017 21:27:59 GMT -6
Why is the issue non-debatable? Why is it a topic not worth discussion (especially here in a Hopper thread)? Your question demonstrates the pettiness of this bill. That people who push the Metric system think themselves to be superior, and that this bill will show just how intellectually superior we as Talossans are. I am sorry you are feeling as though your childishness were a carte-blanche for accusing everybody of everything. We are not trying to be superior, and we are not demanding that you stop debating. I am really annoyed by your accusing me/us of wanting to one-up those whatever-you-call-them United States of Americans with this bill. Now, you can continue debating, and throwing a tantrum, and being all put-up with Talossa, but the matter of the fact is that there was, up until now, a civilised discussion upon the matter where Senator Grischun was even convinced of the merits, and all went along amicably, in the proper Talossan way. The way you behave really seems... not like you, Senator. Maybe you are having a bad week, and in that case, I am sorry. But it does not give you the right to denigrate us, and the intentions of this bill. Hmm, the Mençei accusing another Senator's debate as being childish? Seems reasonable, nice job enforcing decorum there. I came in with my initial post expecting a decent debate which so far hasn't happened. I listed several ways the Imperial system works better in everyday life. Then a flurry of posts quoting me come in detailing why I was wrong, and I rebutted that. No childish comments have happened, and I'm frankly offended that you would consider my debate to be a "tantrum". If anything can be considered childish, it's the one line where I say it's moot, and enjoy the one line change in El Lexhatx. I mean, I think that's completely fair to say--its a continuation of the argument that the bill isn't actually going to change anything and we, as a Ziu, would be wasting our time passing it. Trust me, if I were throwing a tantrum, I'd have more than a few choice words to say in response, but I respect the dignity of the Ziu, and it wouldn't be worth getting upset over something as insignificant as this.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 23, 2017 10:23:27 GMT -6
Senator, we are not in the Senäts chamber, and I am not the Mençei outside of it. Spare me your feigned animadversion.
Did you really want to start a debate, after the Clark was closed? I do not see you participating in the debate in the time during which voting was open, good Segnhor. And setting that aside; you had a civilised debate: S:reu Marscheir, and Justice Tamorán, answered you on multiple occasions, and with less indignation than I have.
And, honestly, can you claim wanting to debate in a civilised manner, when almost all of your comments were rife with cynicism, ridicule, and insupportable accusations?:
And you still have the courage to speak of the dignity of the Ziu? Senator, please.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on May 23, 2017 15:49:39 GMT -6
Are we missing a beat here? Justice Tamoran makes me wonder if this Bill would be better being fleshed out into a full Talossan Weights and Measures Act. I'm going to vote PER on this one actually. I also ask the author if he would be willing to expand the scope of work on this and work with me after the Clark on a fully-fledged and more detailed, modern Talossan Weights and Measures Bill? I would be glad to. What do you have in mind? Thinking about it. I'm trying to think what weights and measures could be Talossanised.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on May 23, 2017 15:54:07 GMT -6
Spare me your feigned animadversion. Your English skills are insanely better than most English peoples'.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 23, 2017 16:05:14 GMT -6
Spare me your feigned animadversion. Your English skills are insanely better than most English peoples'. Thank you, you make me blush. I blame my Latin classes in high school for that particular word, animadversion. I seldom use it, but it is such a nice word! Now if I could only stop being accent-fluid, and settle on one accent. But, instead, I whir, and buzz around in Scottish, Received Pronunciation (without the wine–whine merger), and American Mid-West ― depending on for which TV show I most recently have developped an addiction.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on May 23, 2017 20:23:02 GMT -6
Justice Tamoran, as for your question to me, I'll check what my newborn English son thinks, weighing in at his 3 week check at 7lb6oz.
As for Senator Tresplet's bemusement at the controversy over him holding a contrary opinion, he really must learn that metricization is the universal fetish of progressives worldwide. In the emotion attached to it, it's Esperanto writ large (I would say metric is more practically useful than Esperanto, but I'm at a conlang board, so...).
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on May 24, 2017 6:00:37 GMT -6
he really must learn that metricization is the universal fetish of progressives worldwide. I will point out that I am pretty conservative in my macro-political life (if that was not made apparent by the recent debate over healthcare I had). However, when I believe I see a better system, I want to adopt that system, similar to how I push for the adoption of Instant Runoff Voting. Also, Munditenens Tresplet , I am a patriotic (US of?) American in addition to being a patriotic Talossan, and would not attack the "(US of?) American" way of doing things just for the sake of it.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on May 24, 2017 12:06:37 GMT -6
I didn't see the healthcare debate, though I generally assume that Americans, by the phrase "conservative" in relation to fiscal matters, actually mean "classical liberal". That may not apply here, of course, but if it does it's relevant to the issue of the conservative instinct. That forms one basis for my preference for the Imperial system; it is tried and tested, comfortable, disparate, based on customary measures rather than anything ideal. Its quixotic nature has its downsides, but it also has its upsides - at an aesthetic and moral level.
I'd also say that base 12 and 16 both offer more useful factors than base 10, whilst base 14 offers the same number; the question of "usefulness" is not so simple as saying that 10 is the most "natural" to use (if nothing else, ask the Indians about their numeric system!).
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