Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on May 24, 2010 4:57:45 GMT -6
I think we should start working on the election procedures of our assembly.
Currently: "Article 7. Legislative power in the Sovereign Province of Cézembre is invested in l'Etats de Cézembre. L'Etats shall consist of two classes of members: General Members, all Cézembrian citizens who wish to have membership in the body; and Voting Members, those who have been selected by those parties having won votes in the preceding general election. Each party shall receive a number of Voting Memberships equal to the number of votes they received from Cezembrian citizens at provincial assembly level in the preceding general election. A nominated Member may hold multiple Voting Memberships."
I think the following things should be changed about it:
* The assembly should just consist of one class of members, general members are not neccesary. In case something should be decided by all citizens, I think it is better to just say, all Cézembrians are allowed to vote or something like that. I just dont see the point in the current system, its only confusing.
* The Seneschal (or Governor-General if hes absent) should be obligated to publically request the chancery to conduct elections to l'Etats during General-Elections at least a week before the elections take place.
* If the chancery does not want to conduct provincial elections, the Seneschal (or again Governor-General) should conduct elections to l'Etats during the general elections.
* Maybe there should be a standard number of seats instead of a complicated assembly with a different size after each election. (I first thought of 11, because there are 11 black ermine spots in our flag, but then I thought it should be even. That might be unusual, but there is a possibility that two parties have the the same amount of votes, so now I think there should be 20 seats, because we have not only 11 ermine-spots, but also 9 stripes in our flag.) I know this probably doesnt make sense, but the idea is the important thing.
* Last year one party assigned 1,33 seats to 3 persons. We probably should make it clear that parties should assign whole seats.
* The procedures (elections and the assignment of seats) should just be much clearer.
I will work on this soon, hopefully with the help of other Cézembrians, especially Litz, because she is way better at drafting bills than I am.
Any suggestions?
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on May 26, 2010 13:23:25 GMT -6
The second Cézembrian election amendment.
WHEREAS there are 11 ermine-spots in our flag and
WHEREAS there are 9 black and white stripes in our flag and
WHEREAS we need better election procedures btw now
THEREFORE article 7 of the constitution of Cézembre shall be amended to read:
"Article 7. Legislative power in the Sovereign Province of Cézembre is invested in l'Etats de Cézembre. l'Etats shall consist of 20 voting members. Voting memberships can only be assigned to citizens of Cézembre. Citizens may hold mutiple voting memberships. One voting membership can not be assigned to more than one citizen."
"Article 7. Legislative power in the Sovereign Province of Cézembre is invested in l'Etats de Cézembre. l'Etats shall consist of no more and no less than twenty (20) seats. Seats in l’Etats de Cézembre can only be assigned to citizens of Cézembre. Citizens may hold more than one seat. One seat cannot be divided among nor assigned to more than one citizen."
FURTHERMORE the following articles shall be inserted, in Chapter II, after Article 7:
" Article 8. Elections to l'Etats shall be conducted during Talossan general elections. The Seneschal (or the Governor-General in case the Seneschal has been absent for more than a week) must request the chancery to conduct those elections at least a week before balloting day. If the chancery refuses to conduct those elections, the Seneschal (or again, the Governor-General) shall conduct the elections."
"Article 9. Each party shall receive a percentage of the voting-memberships as equal as possible to the percentage of the votes it received in the most recent election to l'Etats. Each party may divide its voting-memberships amongst Cézembrian citizens as it sees fit. If a voting member dies or resigns the voting membership shall return to the party that assigned the voting-membership."
"Article 8. The chancery is requested to conduct elections to l'Etats. Elections to l'Etats shall be conducted at the same time as elections to the Cosâ and in accordance with the national election laws and rules. The Seneschal (or the Governor-General in case the Seneschal has been absent for more than one week) may request the chancery not to conduct those elections in no less than one week before balloting day. If the Seneschal (or Governor-General) makes such a request, the Seneschal (or the Governor-General) shall conduct the elections in accordance with provincial election laws and rules."
"Article 9. After elections to l'Etats, each party will receive 20 numbers, which will be produced by dividing the number of votes the party received by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20. The 20 highest numbers will be referred to as high quotients. In case the 20th highest number has the same value as the 21th highest number all numbers with the same value will not be considered high quotients. This will result in vacant seats in the assembly. Each party will receive a number of seats, equal to the number of high quotients it received. Each party may divide its seats amongst Cézembrian citizens as it sees fit. If a member dies or resigns or is impeached by a motion receiving a 2/3rds vote of the L’Etats, the seats shall return to the party that assigned the seats."
FURTHERMORE all articles following Article 9 above, shall be re-numbered accordingly.
Uréu q'estadra sa
Tycho van Die (voting member, PPT)
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on May 28, 2010 9:52:33 GMT -6
Any comments?
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Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN
Puisne Justice; Chancellor of the Royal Talossan Bar; Cunstaval to Florencia
Dame & Former Seneschal
Posts: 1,157 
Talossan Since: 4-5-2010
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN on May 28, 2010 11:40:03 GMT -6
This looks good however, I would recommend changing “20 voting members” to “no more and no less than 20 seats”, as the way it currently reads, it will have a maximum of 20 people and varying seats depending on the number of voters. I think we will need to cap the seats rather than the members, however, given that you can’t have half a seat, this way will also cap the members at 20, but I am sure if and when that happens we can increase the number of seats in line with the increased membership. Also, I have corrected a few spelling/grammar errors [ge].
I am also against this whole “voting membership”, if you are a member you can vote under this amendment, thus the phrase voting membership is made redundant. So I think it should be streamlined to say “members” and “seats”, where applicable.
So my proposal would be:
Next,
This looks good and it allows for elections to be done by the Secretary of State who will be receiving national election ballots making it easier for citizens of Cézembre to vote and also allows the province the option of if it wants to hold its own election (e.g. by not making the request). However, I think that given, Article XVII: Section 9. “...Provincial elections may, if so specified in a Province's constitution, be conducted by the Chancery at the same time as elections to the Cosâ, and in accordance with the national election laws and rules.” This makes the last sentence rather redundant, as the Chancery is given no room to refuse to hold the provincial elections as the Province constitution will specify so. Thus, I would also suggest, that our constitution state elections should be carried out by the Chancery, but we have a clause in it that allows our Seneschal or G-G to request that the Chancery not do so.
So, my suggestion would be:
This article looks fine, however, once again, I would suggest saying “seats” or “members” instead of “voting memberships”
Thus, it will read as follows:
Thoughts?
Litz
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on May 28, 2010 14:01:57 GMT -6
I agree with this. I'm not sure. Last general elections no-one asked the chancery to conduct provincial elections, so no provincial elections were conducted, although they were needed. I'm not sure whether the chancery is always aware of this constitution, so I still think we should request the chancery, so we're sure there will be provincial elections. I kinda copy-pasted the as equal as possible thing for the composition to the cosa part of the orglaw. It might be a good idea to be more specific than that, but I dont think this would be the right way to divide the seats. There are a few situations I can think of in which this system doesnt work. For example if this results in more than 20 seats, which is possible. Also I think its unfair if one party gets all the unassigned seats if more than one seat remains unassigned. So I suggest a different method, maybe this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Hondt_methodThere is also another problem (which could also happen with the as equal as possible thing, BTW): What if 2(or more) parties have equal rights to the final seat(s). I'm not sure whats the best solution, maybe all seats that cant be assigned should just remain vacant for one term. |
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Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN
Puisne Justice; Chancellor of the Royal Talossan Bar; Cunstaval to Florencia
Dame & Former Seneschal
Posts: 1,157
Talossan Since: 4-5-2010
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN on May 28, 2010 15:22:14 GMT -6
I think that we should have this article in the constitution as I have put it, there is nothing stopping one from requesting the election and making the SoS aware of the constitution and his duty under the OrgLaw and our constitution to hold the election, then the Chancery will hold the elections alongside the Cosâ elections until the province instructs him otherwise, so rather than sending in a request, every Cosâ election, we just let the SoS (and the SoS after him...which won't be for another long while (sorry Mick)) that he should when doing the national election, include our election in it. This saves all the trouble of sending in a note every election and should the G-G or Seneschal not make the deadline on time. If we want to hold the election ourselves, then this article allows for that, by simply telling the Chancery to take a election off and we will do it ourselves.
I don't think we are going to get a solution which covers all the "what-ifs", I think we just have to find the best fit solution and try to apply it in all situations as best we can and when a problems arises, then work pro-actively to try and sort it out. However, I can see your point and since this amendment forbids the dividing of seats, if there is a decimal (which there probably will be), say party A gets 10.7 seats and Party B gets 9.3 seats, then applying the method I suggested, we get Party A with 11 seats and Party B with 9 seats. Now say Party A gets 6.6, Party B 6.2 and Party C 7.2, Then Party A would get, 7 seats, B, 6 and C, 7. I think the point you were trying to make was what if say 3 parties get 33.3% of the vote each, in which A,B,C would get 6.6 seats, which gives 7 and a total of 21 seats, since the seats cannot exceed 20, I think the best solution will be to round down and get 18 seats and leave the two vacant or have the G-G assign them to whom s/he sees fit. The maths will never be perfect, but I am open to other suggestions?
Litz
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on May 30, 2010 13:15:01 GMT -6
I'm dont think a provincial constitution can make it obligatory for the chancery to conduct elections, but I'm not sure.
I think commonly used proportional representation methods such as d'hondt cover most of the what ifs. There are of course exceptions like 28%/28%/44% (7,7,11) or as you said 33,3%/33,3%/33,3%. I think we should indeed leave seats vacant if someting like that happens.
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Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN
Puisne Justice; Chancellor of the Royal Talossan Bar; Cunstaval to Florencia
Dame & Former Seneschal
Posts: 1,157
Talossan Since: 4-5-2010
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN on May 30, 2010 14:03:58 GMT -6
We as I said above, Article XVII: Section 9. of the Organic Law says “...Provincial elections may, if so specified in a Province's constitution, be conducted by the Chancery at the same time as elections to the Cosâ, and in accordance with the national election laws and rules.” So the provincial constitution can specify that elections be carried by the Chancery, however if Mick or whoever the SoS is, says that he is are too busy to carry out the Election, then we won't press the issue saying, but our constitution says you "have" to, we'll just do it ourselves.
I don't like the idea of pestering the SoS with requests coming up to election time, when he is extremely busy with other stuff, so I think, if we put a clear clause in our constitution so the SoS knows that s/he should carry out this election and the Constitution acts as a formal request to him rather than someone bugging him every election time. If he can't do it, then that's fine, but it makes more sense to do it this way that sending requests.
Well we can give the D'Hondt method a try run and see how if works out, if it turns out to be too troublesome then I think another method would have to be looked into, if it proves to be successful then we'll stick with it!
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on May 31, 2010 13:53:59 GMT -6
for example:
CRO 1/0,5/0,3 2 seats
RUMP 3/1,5/1/0,75/0,6/0,5/0,428571/0,375 7 seats
PPT 5/2,5/1,6/1,25/1/0,83/0,714285/0,625/0,5/0,5/0,45/0,416 11 seats
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on May 31, 2010 14:04:27 GMT -6
" Article 8. The chancery is requested to conduct elections to l'Etats. Elections to l'Etats shall be conducted at the same time as elections to the Cosâ and in accordance with the national election laws and rules. The Seneschal (or the Governor-General in case the Seneschal has been absent for more than one week) may request the chancery not to conduct those elections in no less than one week before balloting day. If the Seneschal (or Governor-General) makes such a request, the Seneschal (or the Governor-General) shall conduct the elections in accordance with provincial election laws and rules”
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on May 31, 2010 14:42:31 GMT -6
"Article 9. After elections to l'Etats, each party will receive 20 numbers, which will be produced by dividing the number of votes the party received by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20. The 20 highest numbers will be referred to as high quotients. In case the 20th highest number has the same value as the 21th highest number all numbers with the same value will not be considered high quotients. This will result in vacant seats in the assembly. Each party will receive a number of seats, equal to the number of high quotients it received. Each party may divide its seats amongst Cézembrian citizens as it sees fit. If a member dies or resigns or is impeached by a motion receiving a 2/3rds vote of the L’Etats, the seats shall return to the party that assigned the seats."
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on May 31, 2010 14:44:17 GMT -6
Any comments?
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Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN
Puisne Justice; Chancellor of the Royal Talossan Bar; Cunstaval to Florencia
Dame & Former Seneschal
Posts: 1,157
Talossan Since: 4-5-2010
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN on May 31, 2010 17:33:46 GMT -6
It looks great!  |
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jun 1, 2010 5:12:48 GMT -6
Shall I add you as a cosponsor again?
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jun 2, 2010 0:24:01 GMT -6
I'll be away for a week, so I suggest we start voting now.
C2. The second Cézembrian election amendment.
Ian da Bitour 2 - PER
Litz Cjantscheir 1 - PER
Tycho van Die 1 - PER
Lodewijk Pet 2 - PER
X.G. d'Aratorxheu 1 -
A. Likazar Bisquinq 1 - PER
Iac Marabuerg 1 - PER
Voting is possible until the 16th of this month. I'll contact everyone that hasnt voted as soon as I come back
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